The Safety Management Show
The Safety Management Show

Episode 10 · 1 month ago

System-Based Safety: The Cornerstone of Your Safety Program w/ Jeffrey Citrone


It’s better to fix the systematic root of a safety hazard before you try to fix safety attitudes. That’s why a system-based safety approach, where you fix an issue through system alterations, is the best way to launch a safety program.

In this episode, we talk with Jeffrey Citrone, Manager Healt h and Safety Compliance at KAHUNA Ventures LLC, about how to go a bout implementing a system-based approach to safety. Also, he explains why safety professionals need to do a better job of convincing management of the value of safety.

We discuss:

  • Why system-based safety beats behavior-based safety
  • Making the case to management that safety is cost effective
  • Making contacts in the safety community
  • The growing popularity of the safety field

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You're listening to the SafetyManagement Show where safety professionals share engaging storiesabout their time in the trenches and the hard earned lessons they've learnedalong the way. Let's dig in thank you for joining the Safety Management ShowI one of your hosts Mike Dean here with Safety Services Company and today folks,it's my pleasure to introduce a very special guests. He is a proud husbandand father and has over thirty years of experience and industrial, health,safety and environmental compliance me see. If I can get this right, he is theadministrator of the oil, gas and Mining Practice Specialty for theAmerican Association of Safety Professionals. He is also a certifiedsafety, professional and also a certified industrial hygienics. Hecurrently resides in Colorado where he serves as the manager of health andsafety compliance at Kahuna ventures. Please welcome Jeff Citrone, Hey JeffGood morning. How are you today, I'm wonderful? How are you Mike I'm doingwell? Thank you. Thank you for asking how's the weather out there in Coloradotoday beautiful seventy degrees in sunny good, good, we're out here inArizona. We got a little rain, so that's refreshing from this terribleheat. We've been experienced an so I'm excited about that carrying us throughthe weekend before we get started. I like to act so guys are come acrossfrom Colorado. Give it to me Peyton, manny or John elway. You know that's atough one drawn one. Two Super Bowls Pikin one one here, but I think Peytonis preferable because of John's recent general manager experience here overthe last few years, yeah yeah now tell me: How did you get started into safety Jeffie Safety, so I have a master's degree in geology. Out ofLehigh University back in Pennsylvania, got a job with the oil industry outhere in Colorado, right off the bat and after a few years, probably about tenyears. They needed somebody to do environmental, health and safety, andit kind of fell to me and I moved into that field and got more and moreinvolved with that over my career, Nice. Nice, then me ask you this. If youweren't doing safety, what would you be doing? That's a tough one. I mean Ienjoyed the geology. Obviously, that's you know where I got my degree. I wouldin my mind I would be coaching, you know baseball or something like that,but but most likely I I'd probably working at starbucks, butyou know we now tell us about cohuna industries andthe work you're doing over there. So Kahuna is an engineering, health andsafety and environmental consulting firm that provides services mainly tothe mid stream oil and gas industry throughout the not only United States,but but throughout the world. You know everything from the well heads untilthe delivery systems we designed it, we help build it and we initialize it andget it running. Okay. So with that being said, what is what are youdirectly responsible for with your responsibilities, so obviously thehealth and safety of our employees, the COHUNA employees, that that might go onto a site during the initial start up where the construction of thesefacilities? Additionally, I am heavily involved in aiding the clients that wework for in making sure that the facilities will meet all the variousenvironmental, health and safety regulations throughout their operationsand at the various locations that we get. These things up and running for MNice. Are you traveling to these...

...different locations? Are you kind ofjust working from the office? How does that mainly work from the office, but Ido occasionally go out to these different locations for things like prestart up safety reviews and various things like that, and do you have ateam working under you or TV work with her this before coved had more of ateam, but we're kind of cut down, so were very slim here I have. I have oneperson that works with me on the health and safety side, and then we have a fewothers that work on the environmental side. Speaking of Covin, can you talkabout a little bit? How that affected the business if any at all?Unfortunately, their own industry was not only smacked with Ovid, but it wassmacked with a huge price reduction due to the reduction in demand and theoverproduction here in the United States and over supply of oil. So whencoved hit us at the beginning of two thousand and N Twenty, not only do wehave that slow down, but we had the price of oil going negative for a fewdays, which tremendously impacted the industry and shut down a lot offacilities and caused a lot of heartache way offs and various thingslike that in the industry. Have you are we starting to see a turn around? Ibelieve oil, the price of her Bel, is going up. Things are starting to lookup in your industry yeah. They are we're getting more and more work, we'regetting more and more demand from the clients. Clients are seeming to be moreactive and, as you said, price is going up a little bit which helps absolutelyand help us. I know about it. If it helps you but help yeah yeah, we wehave certain departments of keep their eye on that real tightly. We have a lotof clients in the oil and patrol industry as well, so we probably we tryto keep a close eye on it. Now. Let me ask you what is in your opinion and interms of safety, frequently hell belief that you passionately disagree with somy big thing, and it's probably because of the oil industry, is, I believe thatsystem safety should be primary, where I believe that the majority of safetyprofessionals and industries believe that behavior based safety should beprimary. So that's that's my big soap box that I would get on Nice, nice anddo you write any any programs yourself as far as behavior base safety, yourpolicies or where you kind of drawing those programs from and some of thethings are going over for that? But any of our clients ask us to prepare thoseprograms for them, and you know, as you probably know, as a safety professionalo, you try to copy as much as possible from the past and and not start new,but yeah I mean I, you know we over the the thirty plus years. I havea lot of basis of programs at cept that we utilize and, of course, we utilizeOSEA standards and and industry standards. You know to build ourprograms and our policies from that. Once again, I try and push systemsafety approach, rather than a behavior based approach to start with, becauseof my belief that if you can minimize the hazards that your employees areexposed to by system engineering or system alterations and it's easier tothen maintain a safety attitude and a safety behaviors and employees, youdon't risk as much complacency. Problems forgetfulness various things like that,HMM, okay, and for my listeners that don't know the difference. Can you kindof briefly cover the difference between a behavior base safety and system base?Sure a system based safety system will...

...try and follow more the the Oceah ofcontrols by starting with engineering controls and trying to engineer out thehazards that you have at a site at a facility, whatever it's somewhat basedupon Oseas Process Safety Management Standard, even though the system, theProtos, doesn't have to be an actual mechanical or chemical process. It canbe something as simple as driving or you know warehousing or something likethat, and once again you start with the engineering controls, moving down toadministrative controls and and and getting to in the worker attitudes atCetera last once you can, you do everything you can removing the hazards.The behavior based approach is, I think, starts kind of the opposite way whereit looks at making sure your employees have the right attitude, have the right, behavior modes and basis to have them avoid the hazards. Okay- andI appreciate you giving us that that explanation, I know that you know inall years, you've been in safety. You've seen a lot of things that youmay not have agreed with. Is there anything you think everyone should stopdoing when it comes to safety? Not Really I mean I mean everything you dorelated to safety is good. I mean you know, you start with a behavior basedapproach. You know, that's still good. I think that there's a commonconception that process if your or system safety is more complex and morecostly, and I think people should get rid of that idea because it isn't. Youhave a lot of flexibility and in variability there to s, start thatfirst and make make the sight safer safer for the workers. What work canyou speak to? Maybe some of the challenges you face when you firststarted out in the safety field? Well, obviously, would looking at my grayhair in a thirty plus years, simply as somewhat new on theregulatory side, I mean you know, I started up by my career in seventy.Eight, a d and the Ocean C went in place in seventy two, so it wasrelatively knew. So a lot of people didn't know about it, and you had the general attitude in the inthe various industry. Is that it's just a pain, and you know we just got to getby and we don't. You know just governments making us do this and itreally doesn't benefit the industry, so it s. So we had to overcome somenegative attitudes and and get management more aligned with a safetyprocess and a safety thought over the years. Some industries were harder thanothers, oil and gas, and you know particularly had a reputation as beinga good old boy network. You know out in the middle of nowhere where youknow we didn't have to worry about those government folks coming around awhole bunch, so so it took a while yeah yeah. Absolutely I would imagine now.Let me ask you this: Is there any one that you know when you feel stuck onsomething? You know, safety related that you turn to, or do you have anymentors in the field you know? Luckily, you know we talked about the practicespecialty in the American society, safety professionals on gas and miningpractice specialty, there's over five hundred people that belong to that andI feel very comfortable if I'm stuck on something posting, a question on that.You know the society website the... page and seeing what answerscome from all my other colleagues in the in the field. So I think that's the one of the bestresources. I have obviously I know a lot of people. You know in the in thefield being around so long and you know so. I Yeah I mean I talked to a lot ofdifferent people. Is there one in particular, not that I can think of,but can you- and I know you kind of you-just talked a little bit about it, but can you give us a little bit moredetail on what you all are doing at the the oil gas, a mining practicespecialty for American Association, so the American Society, sintprofessionals, is the largest organization in the world for safetyprofessionals that the in various industries- all you know, government,whatever it all through, has members and chapters you know, even in Indian,China and and the Middle East and Africa all over the place. What we dowant to practice specialty as we try and concentrate on a specific industryor a specific service are ours, the oil, gasand mining. You know kind of concentrates on those industries to tryand group those safety professionals from around the world into a moretightly knit more specialized group so that we can provide education resourcesand the network for those people to co mingle with share knowledge with a Dand rely on for help. Okay for some of mylisteners, that may be interested what's the process and being a part ofthe association. So you can look at the American Society of safetyprofessionals. You Know Gooa, it will take you to their website.It will tell you how to become a member in that website. You can look up thevarious communities and practice specialties. They list them out and youcan look up what you know. You is of particular interest to you. Once youbecome a society member, I believe it's a very small annual feed to become thecommunity or practice specialty. Remember. I think it's like twenty fivel a year. Okay to add that on, but then you can participate. Then youautomatically get access to the that community page and the emails andeverything else it sounds like you know, and the and the more I get into safety.I see that it's a great community as far as safety and the building a greatcommunity, especially with nowadays and you know, trying to differentiatesafety and legislation and policies, and you know we practicesafety. Wepreach safety, but a lot of you know. I know a lot of businesses is aboutwatching the bottom line. So you know these safety, associations andcommunities. That's great, you know and build in that, so we all have somebodyto lean on you know and when it comes to you know, I don't haveone mentor. You know I have a whole community. I can get resources from so I'm behind that a hundred percent.What can you speak to if any any failures that you've experienced, thatyou think many people can be headed for in a safety field? I mean I've seen alot of failures in my career. You know that one of the biggest things I thinkthat the safety professionals fail at is is making their case to managementeffectively on how you know safety is cost effective. You know you might bespending up front money to do something to to put an engineering controllingplace, but the in the long run. It really does affect the bottom line in apositive way for that industry and in... many different ways, not not onlydirect costs but indirect cost with you know, employee happiness andsatisfaction, customer satisfaction and reliance. Youknow various things like that, you know so so I think that that's the biggestfailure we have is, we don't argue for our profession in ourexpertise, enough m. what's some steps we can take to argue for it and gettingenough and getting it out there what some things that we can do to kind ofalleviate that, in your opinion, there's a lot of of you know once againuse of the societies used of the education. That's out there associatedwith them use of that community to help you make those cases. I mean. There's alot of resources out there to provide you ways to argue for yourself and and waysto show management how it is cost effective and what the bottom linecosts are, and things like that. So you know you going back to that bigcommunity to help. You is the best way that that we can learn and get theresources to make those arguments agreed and kind of along that same line.Anybody that you know wants to get into the safety field, whether you know it's,the oil and you know petroleum industry, construction manufacturing. Do you haveany tips or advice or kind of where to start. If you truly want to become asafety professional, I I mean once again, you know the resources that areout there, not only the asspekt but the National Safety Council, the variousindustry groups, the there's a lot of resources out there for somebodystarting up- and you know, make those contacts that you know don'tjust rely on yourself, make those contacts get that community going andand people will help you. I mean we're. Not We all went through it at one pointin time, so so we're think the safety communities are very kind andcooperative community. So so I you know somebody starting now, you know get outthere search things on I mean we all havethat interweb now and you know I search things and make those contacts and makeand get in those communities yeah. If you could go back to when you firststarted and tell the younger jeff in safety, if you could give him anyadvice, what would you tell yourself if you can go back to the beginning? Imean I would probably take more educational opportunities early oninstead of trying to learn in the field learning in the fields great, but buthaving a stronger basis from the classroom. I think helps a lot more.Okay and you know I give varied opinions. Some people are, you know,hey that the field experience is key. Then I have something to say: You KnowEducation, you know, so I get both sides and I think it is both sides. Imean it can't be one or the other yeah. Absolutely absolutely now. Let me askyou this: Is there anything recent that you all may have tried in the company,but you were kind of surprised by the result of I mean the big. The big pushthat I see right now is big data. You know, that's that's something thatthat's very prevalent now and you know the advancement in technology that wehave a scene over the past. Even ten years you know, allows us to utilizemore analytical means and more computer based analogical means to enhance ourarguments in our and our trainings and all that kind of stuff and our designand everything. So, even though I'm an old folk, thatprobably is not you know as competent on a computer. I as some of these youknow nubies coming in, but I think it's...

...very important to get get more and moreof that technology, computer based resources and involved in your safetyprograms. Do you see a lot of the younger generation getting involved inthe safety field? Or is it just? Was US old timers? What do you you know? It depends. You know I, unfortunately,you know the only gas industry in particular has upturns and downturns,and I think during the downturns, you see a lot of companies straying awayfrom hiring new people into the into the field and all that, so you run intospans of years where you start getting older and older folks and you get newfolks come in so so I think it's an up and down it's a wave that goes on, butoverall, I think it's becoming more prevalent more popular for people get into the safety field,especially through the various colleges that you see more and more collegesoffering you know, safety, degrees and safety base degrees over the course ofyour career. Have you did any do any trainings, or do you get intothat at all or well I mean I do provide. You know industry based trainings. I ama a certified trainer in certain topics. Things like that. I try and participate by presenting newideas, new concepts at various conferences, various things like that.So I mean I like that I enjoy it. I have no problem talking, so you know I seem to do okay. One thing I like to dowith my guest is talk about workplace injuries that they've experience had tooversee. Can you give us a story that of a work, injury that you know you hadto take car of an address? One in particular sticks in my mind. It was a construction, pipe line, constructionsat where they're unloading, high pressure, steel pipe, which youknow comes in sixty foot sections, is extremely heavy and they're unloadingit in the prime trying to stack it up on, say you know for future use and andthe stack was not stable, it's a pyramidal stack of pipe and it hadstarted to roll and, unfortunately, a worker thought that they could stop. Itstop the pipe from rolling by putting their foot up against it and andholding it in place, but it was way heavier than than they could do thatrolled up their lay and crush her leg, and- and I don't know what happenedtoday- I mean a gentleman no longer worked in that field in theconstruction field, but I I don't know what happened to him later in life, butlooking back at that, you could have easily implemented some sort ofengineering system like a barrier concrete barrier. You know planned, pull something it could havebeen engineered to keep that pipe from rolling and it wouldn't have been thatdifficult or expensive and it would have saved that person's career and leg.Unfortunately yeah now. What's your first course of action when that whenthat accident happens, what's your first course of action? Well, obviously,you know is to try to re it to stop any further damage from occurring toanybody else and that employee you know get. You know medical professionals onsite as soon as possible to deal with that and stop work. I mean it'simmediately, stop work! Okay, can you kind of- and I like to have my guests-do this as well kind of walk us through the steps of you know, dealing with theOCA inspection or Ocean Spector job site, injury sure welcome to them. Soyou know you know once again, if you...

...have a proper program and policy inplace, it's a lot easier so being prepared for any injury disaster oranything like that ahead of time is the best thing you can do when an oceaninspection actually occurs because then you know you can. The first thing is: is when that Ocean inspector shows on sate,try to be positive, try to be cooperative and you know, do they'renot out there to get you they're doing a job to you, try and react, and if youare prepared it's easier to react, it's easier to answer their questions and tobe cooperative with them. Then you know once again, like I said: Don't try toavoid anything, be open and honest. You know, if you don't have somethingimmediately available. Tell him you know we have that it's not right here,right now, N. I can get that to you. You know you in in time frame and youknow yes, we do do that so because you know you're not on a site, especiallywhere the injury you may not have all your training records available. Youmay not have all your no policies immediately available. You know theymight be back in the truck, they might be some place else and be honest, beopen and usually their understanding, a D, and Iagree with you. I appreciate you sharing that giving my listeners a tips,one dealing with Osia and you know possible inspections. Is there beforewe wrap this thing up any message you want to leave to the listeners anythingthat you really want to drive home you once again, I'm going to go back to toyou, know my soap box and say we need to do system safety. First, we need totry and get rid of engineer out Isola the hazards up front as soon as possible. You knoweverybody thinks it's complicated and costly, but in the long run it's not,and if you can do that, then it's a lot easier and you can show your employeesthat it's a lot easier to get those employees to understand and Co, operateand believe in safety and do the behavior based safety, afterward, okay,Great Great Jeff. I want to thank you for joining us today. It was a pleasureand giving US insight into your safety world and some of the things thatyou're dealing with and been through again. We know it was a pleasurebuilding a safety community system safety, I'm with all of it, and I agreewith it whole heartedly. So again it was a pleasure, my phoenix sons. We arein the championship, Yeah Yeah, so we're happy out here in Arizona. Butagain thank you. Have a good holiday weekend to my listeners out there.Thank you for joining us with another episode of the Safety Management. Showagain I'm the one of the hosts. My D. Would Safety Services Company Jeff? Doyou want to give any special shot out to anybody before we take ossae, acolleague with mine down there in Phoenix Area Tim page Bodart, that is aclose friend of mine and I've been working with him a long time in theAmerican society and safety professionals and he's a wonderfulperson. I want to just say: Hey all right, we'll appreciate it and againeverybody until the next time stay safe, thanks Mike in need of a blue print for workplacesafety and Compliance Safety Services Company is North America's leadingprovider of safety, training and compliant solutions. We supply customsafety, manials and policies and on sight and online training solutionsthat will enhance the safety of your workplace and our compliance serviceswill save you time and resources...

...guaranteeing peace of mind witheighteen years in the industry we have a proven track record of helpingcustomers achieve better safety outcomes by providing customizesolutions that fit the unique needs of each business to learn more had tosafety services. Companyon, thanks for listening to the safetymanagement, show to hear more stories from safety leaders subscribe to theshow in your favorite podcast player. If you enjoyed the show, leave us arating until next time stay safe, T.

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