The Safety Management Show
The Safety Management Show

Episode 13 · 1 year ago

Plan, Do, Check, Act: Management Systems in Environmental Health & Safety w/ Jackie Baxley


Management systems are a great way to assess and control environmental health and safety issues within your organization. They help you along the implementation journey ensuring you get buy-in at every level.

So how do you go about using a management system? 

The framework to remember: plan, do, check, act. 

In this episode, Jackie Baxley , Principal and EHS Practice Leader at HRP Associates, Inc. , talks about how management systems work and best practices for acquiring certifications.

We discuss:

- Working with clients on COVID programs and protocols

- Management systems, like ISO 14,001 and ISO 45,001

- What makes for a good onboarding system

- Advice for new safety professionals

- Hazard recognition and training

Hear more stories from safety professionals by subscribing in Apple Podcasts , Spotify, or visiting our website .

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You're listening to the safety management show. We're safety professional share engaging stories about their time in the trenches and the hard earned lessons they've learned along the way. Let's dig in. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Safety Management Show. I am your host, Mike Dean, with Safety Services Company, and today we have a special guests. She brings well over twenty years of experience in the safety feel. She is the principal and ehs practice leader at hrap associates. Joining me today is Jackie Baxley. May Zachie, how are you today? Doing well, Mike. How's it going? Thanks for having me on today, or thank you for joining us. GOING WELL ON OUR end out here in Arizona. And we're in oven cooking. So I think we all are in an oven right now. Yes, so, yeah, we're you're in you're in good company. You got the dry heat, I got the human heat. So I wouldn't trade you any day. I tell you that. I'll take this dright every time. So, Jackie, first of all tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got into safety and maybe some of the work you all are doing over it HRP associates. Yeah, absolutely, so so, yes, I've been, as you mentioned in the Intro, I've been in the EHS field for for over twenty years. I started my career in industry. So I went to school gut an environmental engineering degree. First job out of school was in industry where I was an environment engineer responsible for environmental compliance at a textile company. That textile company had a phenomenal environmental and health and safety program so they their baseline was always above and beyond what you know, the regulations actually required. So it was a great place to cut my teeth. It was a great place to see kind of what a world class, you know, environmental and health and safety program looks like. And and so I was in I was in industry, textile and then the chemical manufacturing industry, in those roles of environmental with a bit of health and safety for about the the first nine or ten years of my career. In the last fourteen some odd years I've been here at hrap where I've threaded those experiences that that I got from being on the other side of the table in industry as a consultant to to help you know, our clients, our stakeholders, meet whatever their regulatory obligations are, but not just meet them, you know, find solutions that work for them, because every workplaces nuanced, every workplace has their own challenges. So our company, HRAP, we've been providing engineering, environmental, hydrogeological and compliance assistance to new companies since S so so I've been able to threaten my experiences of being a doer, so to spig in industry and and and threading those in for solutions that work for our clients. Specifically, here at HP, I'm the practice leader for our environmental and health and safety practice. So I help facilitate the team of environmental and health and safety professionals that we have here. You know, focusing my role as the practice leader is primarily to focus on quality, on staff development and on Business Development. But I was in the trenches, you know, for the first, you know, ten years here at HP. And I still get into the trenches, you know, because, as my philosophy is, you can't lead a practice if you don't get out there and practice as well. So so I enjoyed the days that I get to get out there and do audits, do training, do you know, health and safety inspections, and get my hands dirty again. Nice is there specific industries you all deal with there as Kanda, all over the place, or what exactly? You know, it's really all over the place and it really kind of depends on what part of our practice. So, you know, with the our environmental and in our engineering practice, works a lot with municipalities, works a lot with the tourney's, works a lot with, you know, real estate developers or speculators, because we're getting involved in maybe distress properties, you know, looking at clean up solutions, you know, Brown field redevelopment and so in that space, you know, attorney's, real estate developers, you financial institutions and and as well as industry that might be potential responsible parties in those types of situations. On the compliant side, which is where I work, it's everybody. It's if you have an environmental or health and safety, you know, regulation that that your subject to, we're probably working with you. So we've worked in the healthcare industry and the Higher Education Industry, K through twelve and and obviously construction and general industry as well. So yeah, the environmental you might have a smaller regulatory foot print depending on,... know, what what sector you're in. But you know, if you've got employees, you got Osha. So absolutely being not a kind of want to tackle this at the beginning of this interview, just with the everything going on with cold Ben and, you know, fascinations, mandates things that nature. How has I like in the COVID era, you know, for lack of a better term, how have you all been able to deal with your clienteel and aiding an assisting as some of the protocols, you know, dealing with God, yeah, accent. It's funny that you mentioned that because just before you and I hopped on this call to record, I was doing a Webinar, you know, for for folks, on what's the latest and greatest guidance from from CDC as well as from Osha. You know, since we're as we're recording this, were kind of in the thick of the Delta surge across the United States. So back in March of two thousand and twenty. As a company, we really recognize that, you know, as the providers of you know, risk management services, compliance services, as well as we get involved in, you know, Asbestos Abatement and and and project management, as well as like facility decommissioning, has mat clean up and response. We realized that we could really thread our experiences in those areas and really tailor it to the very new and unique challenges that covid posed. You know, because back in March two thousand and twenty, you couldn't find anybody that had experience because it was a there's a whole new ball game for anybody. So so we were able to recognize that what we do as environmental, health and safety professionals, you know, what we do as has matt services, really easily pivoted into that, that covid space. So we assist clients on various levels. One of the levels is we helped our clients, you know, assess their workplaces, see where their risk factors were and helped to tailor controls and prevention strategies to allow employees, especially those employees that were, you know, in that that critical infrastructure, to continue to work, but continue to work safely. You know, whether that meant, you know, rotating, you know, changing the way we rotated shifts, whether that meant, you know, identifying those positions that was critical to be there, but when was it critical for them to be their physical distancing, you know, reassessing how we do the break rooms and everything. So we really helped with those, we call them the COVID nineteen preparedness, response and Prevention plans, and obviously a part of that was making sure we identified what we're going to do if we have an outbreak before we have an outbreak. The number of calls that we got, Hey, we just had an outbreak. What do we do? You know, by having a plan ahead of time, it just makes it a lot easier, you know, when you're faced with those challenges, just like any emergency action plan that you would have for for any health and safety program so we assisted in the planning and we also assisted in the project management, supervision, supervision and actually cleaning and disinfecting of workspaces that had an outbreak or had cases, and we really made sure that that we tailored those cleaning and disinfections, you know, to what was appropriate in scale and nature to what they were dealing with. You know, we didn't come in and clean everything, you know, because it might have been isolated to one area and if they had a good covid plan in place, then you are able to keep it in that one area and and not have to, you know, spend exorbit amount of money and an exorbit amount of downtime to fully clean and disinfect. So from a business perspective we really pivoted into that place. From an employer perspective, you know, we we were essential services as the the provider of environmental, health and safety compliance support. We continued be essential services and we are still hop it. On planes sometimes, you know, to go help clients in an emergency situation. We were going into facilities. So we really stayed up to day with the latest and greatest of what CDC was recommending. We always had conversations with our client. It wasn't just showing up at the door. Hey, I'm here, really making sure what what are your protocols? What are the protocols in your state? Because at one point in time we had to really focus on who can we send out to a particular job, because if they were just in one state and the state that they're about to go to is a state that won't let somebody from that state come in without quarantining for two weeks, that could really affect a project. So our operations and our communication really stepped up because just the distribution of people you had to really take into consideration. You know what the Patchwork of requirements were across across the nation. Absolutely. Do you foresee move a forward in the future, because honestly, we don't know if colvid is going anywhere. I know numbers are spiking, but do you see a lot of changes coming as far as trainings may be moving some more online zoe meetings for,... know, a lot of trainings and going on on a job site? I think we're going to see. What I'm starting to experience this kind of a mixed bag. Some clients and some, you know, workspaces and some cultures have really adopted that online format and it works for them and it works well for them, where others, you know, they don't want to sit in front of the screen another minute. So you know they're eager to get that facetoface training, that hands on training. So you know, the way that I look at training into the future base off of what we've learned and experience through covid. I think we just have more resources at our disposal and when getting you know, when you're talking about production operations and the amount of down time it might take for certain you know, classes or trainings that that are required. I think it's nice that employers have additional options now, whether it's online, whether it's Webinar, whether it's recorded, whether it's in person, so that it's just not it's training. For a long time hasn't been a one size fits all, but I feel like there's just a lot more tools in our tool belt to continue to tailor it. But yeah, I've got clients that are calling me and say please come in and do facetoface training. I cannot handle another Webinar, I cannot handle another zoom call, I cannot handle another anything like that. So so we're I think what we're going to see is a lot of facetoface because people kind of need that, and then I think we'll see a hybrid moving moving forward. Yeah, I agree. I am glad that the schools I know out here in Arizona are back open. I know my kids are tired of the you online and it's not the same. So I can imagine you are translate into these trainings as well. I want to for my listeners get a pad and pin ready. I want you kind of to go over for a lot of my listeners that don't know. I know we had kind of really talked about the ISOL fourteen thousand and one. Can you kind of explain what that is and give it to us? And lame as terms, Jackie, right. Yeah, absolutely, because I know you like to talk to your guests about, you know, what they think folks are not utilizing to the best of the ability, or what you think folks should stop doing and so on. And Management Systems, I think, are a great approach really to managing anything. We're talking about health and safety here, right, but but a management system can help you kind of assess and control quality, can help you assess and control occupational health and safety or environmental issues or energy management. It's really whatever it is you're trying to control and influence you can tie up into a management system. And and the basic principles of any management system is what's called plan, do, check, act. Plan what you're going to do, do it. Check to make sure it's working or that you're doing what you said you're going to do, and then act when you see, you know, issues of noncompliance or nonconformants or things slipping or people not understanding the training or what have you. And so it's that cyclical nature of always somewhere within that cog, or multiple places of the COG, at one time of plan. Do check that and there there are international standards out there for what would be considered a management system. Is Fourteen thousand and one, for example, is the International Standards Organization for an environmental management system. I. So forty five thousand and one is the international standard for an occupational safety and health management system. The Nice thing is that you know, it seems like health and safety professionals also where the environmental hat. Environment professionals sometimes where the health and safety hat. The Nice thing is that those two standards aligne pretty well. So you could easily make it an environmental and health and safety management system because there's a lot of overlap. But when we look at, let's just talk about health and safety and the ISO forty five thousand and one standard, if you look at how that breaks down to plan, do checked act? You know in your planning you're doing things like hazard assessments. You know where's my highest hazard areas? What existing controls do I need? Where do I need to get better controls? So you go through hazard assessment, you go through what are your regulatory obligations, and so you identify not only what of your regulatory obligations because of Osha or any state equivalent, but but also what are the needs and expectations as some of our stakeholders? You know, maybe your union shop and so there's, you know, your stakeholders, being the the union or the represent the workers representatives, might have some additional expectations of you. Maybe you're a manufactory and your your customer base has some expectations. So it's not just the regulatory requirements. Is what I like to call the regulatory and other requirements. You know, everything that you really need to thread into your your your health...

...and safety system to meet those expectations of your stakeholders. Then you're setting goals and objectives and looking for opportunities for improvement, all within that planning section. And then once you kind of got your plan all right, this is what I'm going to focus on these this this is what I got to do because as a regulation or this is what I need to do because as I do my risk assessment, you know it's higher or it's a risk that we're not comfortable with. Then you start to implement control strategies for that. And as you look at health and safety, your training and awareness is a control strategy. Having written programs is is a control strategy and making sure everybody knows what their expectations are within that that written program but was really important as you're looking at these controls, how are we going to control? What it is that we said we need to control is really getting the buying and involvement of not just management. A lot of times these management system develop you know, as you're developing on you're pulling in managers, you're pulling in supervisors, and that is very important, but it's even more important to make sure that we have those frontline workers involved, you know, so that as were developing a training program to control these risks, as we're develop being written procedures to control these risks, as we're putting into place roles and responsibilities and structures to control this risk, that that we've got that representation at the table. You know what's going to work, what's not going to work, where we going to get the buy in. That way we really have a bottom up and and a top down approach that will help us with the successful management system. So you plan what you're going to do, you develop tools to do it and then you check to make sure that is actually working. And that could be anything from internal inspections, monitoring and reporting. That can be audits, it's it could be your daily safety walks. It's essentially anything that you're doing to make sure that all those controls you put into place are controlling what you need them to control. They're working, they're providing, you know, the intended outcomes that you that you wanted and you're looking for opportunities for improvement and as you find those opportunities for improvement, you're actually acting on them. You know, you're re engaging, you know, those frontline workers, you're re engaging your stakeholders and and you're you're really looking toward continuous improvement. So is forty Fivezero has a pretty you know, prescriptive, you know road map, if you will, for how to do it, and there are drivers for getting that specific certification. A lot of times it might be a customer driver. A customer says you gotta have the certification. But even if you're not going forward the full certification, just exercising that plan, do checked act. You know system will really help you make sure that you're focusing on what you need to focus on, what you're doing is working and that you're always looking for those opportunities. For improvement. Good. Now let me ask you. Is there a certain size of company that you will recommend for them to get the ISOL fourteen thousand and one or the forty five hundred one? Yeah, you know, the beautiful thing about the ISO standard is are very scalable. You know, I've seen ginormous fortune five hundred companies that have ISO certification and I've seen, you know, single operation, mom and pop shops that that have it as well. You know, the Nice thing is that it gives you a road map, but you know, you can drive whatever car you need on that journey. So it's scalable not only to the size of your operation, but it's also scalable to the type of your operation. So you can thread it into, you know, a construction, you know company, you can thread it in to any industry. You can thread it into hospitals, healthcare, education. It's again, it's a road map, but but it's a road map that anybody buddy can follow. Now where you're seeking assistance and getting this done, is there any particular companies, any certain companies that can do this? Can't do that, as far as helping you set it up and get that certification? Yeah, so there's a couple of different kind of approaches, if you will. So, for example, at HP were a consulting company, and so sometimes you might engage a consulting company that you have a relationship with that can help you develop a management system to meet your goals and objectives. If your goals and objectives are to get that certification, then you know, consultant can make sure that you dot all the eyes, cross all the t's, follow that road map, you know, to where you have a system that is going to be, you know, both effective but then also be able to be certified by Third Party certifier. You know, my company, for example, we're not a third party, you know, certifying agency. Once you develop your program you get it work in and you've exercised it to where somebody actually has something that they can audit and verify. Once you get your management system to a certain point and you do want that certification, that's where new would engage a certifying body. You for example, when I was in industry, we used underwriter laboratory, but but there's, you...

...know, dozens and dozens of certifying agencies out there that can certify you to an ISO forty five Tho one standard a lot of your listeners, you know, might already have like the ISO Ninezero certification, which is the quality management system. So what I see most folks doing is that they already have like a quality management system that's been certified. They go to that same registering body and you know, there's some lines that you need to be careful not to cross. Right you want to make sure you're registering body is completely removed from your system. So you don't normally have the same entity certifying your system as you would having you help your system. But so if you're engaging in a consultant or a third party provider to help you develop your system, you just want to make sure that they have experience, that they understand the standard they can help you develop a system that's going to work for you. I lot of times I'll get a call, hey, how long will it take for me to get it is forty Fivezero on one system. I'm like, well, it depends. If you just want a system that can be certified but you have no intention of actually exercising it. You know, I could do that for you in a couple of weeks and never even engage you. But it's going to fall flat on its face. You'll get your certification and then you know and then the next time you have to get certified is going to be painful your you you really want it, you really want participation and buy in throughout all levels of the organization. So really to do it right, you know, to go from zero to a system, you know, I like to dedicate, you know, six to twelve months so that we can really work on it together, we can go through each of those steps together so that we get the dot buy in, we get the the participation. We've done it in the shortest three months before. But you know, if you're if your goal is just to get certified, then you know, those systems honestly, are not as strong. But if your goal is to really buy in and participate into what the system is, the management system is, and get certification, then those systems are typically a lot more stronger. They get, you know, really absorbed into the culture of the organization a lot better and it really becomes a tool to help facilitate compliance and facilitate continuous improvement. Okay now, but let me ask you this. Would you consider, you know, having a management system is what you can see, that a resource or tool that people maybe not using too us full of this. Would that be an area? Yeah, I think I think you could. Again, and it does not have to be an ISO forty five thousand and one certified system to be a system. I think folks just are, you know, as a whole, or probably not using that plan. Do Checked Act process to its fullest extent. You know, I'll give you an example. So many times I'll I'll go to a facility and we're helping them out with whatever they need help with, and they might say, well, yeah, I do this checklist every week and I'll ask, well, well, why do you do that checklist every week? And the answer is sometimes will, I don't know, it's just what was always done. And so if you don't pause and say what is it then I need to focus on. Then you could be spinning your wheels on things that are really maybe not value add you know, really are not addressing what your risk are. Might not be addressing what your hazards are. Might be addressing something that was needed, you know, three years ago or six months ago, but now, with the process changes, with new regulations or with other factors, maybe it's not necessary anymore. So one of the key aspects of that plan do checked acts system is to continuously assess are you doing what needs to be done? Are you focusing on what needs to be focused on, so that you're not spending your wheels doing something that's not value added or that even on the other side, that you have an ated or identified something that you really need to be focusing on by pausing periodically reassessing you know, are you focus it? I focused on the right things and and if not, to kind of course correct and make sure that that you you address those and a good way to start, honestly, as an audit just where are you now in your compliance journey and where do you need to be? And sometimes that's just a good footing on which to kind of jump off relative to developing a system. Okay, you know, we had, you know, when we had spoke in our pre interview, we kind of spoke about some of the failures that, you know, a lot of companies could be at it for. I recall you and I've been, I bring this up what we were talking about covid when you mentioned about having a good on boarding system. Well, a lot of workforce getting back to work. What does that look like? What does a good on boarding system looks like? What do you want to make sure that you absolutely have covered? Yeah, you know, and that's going to you know, Gosh, I'm just going to answer that from a health and safety standpoint, right because you've got quality, you've got you know, the culture of your organization. You got everything from what day is payday and you know where are the bathrooms. I mean there's so many different things that are in on boarding program but but from a health and safety standpoint, repetition is really going... be key in the early days of any new employee. And and I'm glad that you brought this up because I do think it's very timely because, you know, as folks are getting back to work as as you know, companies continue to struggle with staffing issues. And again, it doesn't matter if you're in the restaurant industry, in the you know, other service industry and manufacturing. You know, everybody is having staffing woes at this point in time, either a lot of turnover or no job up against for what to have, and so, you know, I think you know, on boarding is going to be really important and from a health and safety standpoint. I'll go back to the management system and a health and safety standpoint. As you're doing that planning and implementation, your identifying what what's critical information your employees need to know and and sometimes it's different depending on what job they're in. So developing a training Matrix, for example, and so if you have somebody going into a specific role or responsibility, you can reference a training Matrix and say, okay, they're going to need this training within their first week, this training within their first thirty days. You know, this training within the first ninety days. And and what I really like to do is is make sure you get some refresher training in there, because when you're new on a job, I mean all of us have had a first day on the job. All of us have at a first week or first month on the job. Every everything is new, and so I think the most important part of any on boarding program is repetition. So don't just throw them in a room on Monday of their first day and go through a death by power point presentation and then say they've got their health and safety signed off on their on boarding and that's it and they go on to the next you know, I'm boarding task. You check it. If you're the health and safety. You know, trainer or representative. You check in with them periodically review. It doesn't have to be a formal presentation, but just touch base with them. Hey, you remember we talked about this. Let me show you this. How's it relates to your job, because a lot of times with I'm boarding, you're doing it within their first week and they've not even been out on the plant floor yet. I mean they don't even know really what they're doing yet. And so to start talking about how health and safety threads into that, you know, the timing is really important and repetition. REPETITION is really important. Yeah, absolutely, repetition. In the sports world, I remember, you know, you go to practice, you practice the same please, over and over it yet over and over, yea, so when the game is time you're ready. So you have very relatable in the where I know we have meetings our managers, same thing over and over and have sometimes all my goodness, like but you need that repetition. I got to tell my son over and over, Hey, do your chores, my daughters do you chort. REPETITION, and they were you know, it goes from all aspects of life into the workforce. So right, yeah, partition and not only repetition, but what I like to do is the check and verify, you know. Yeah, so, all right, so I've told you this three times and I want to see you do it now. Or, like you're talking about with your kids. I've asked you to clean your room three times. Now, you've told me you've done it. I'm going to actually go look at your room to make sure you actually cleaned your room. So you know that that can be applied to any training program you know, to critique the effectiveness of your program and and to kind of check and verify that it's actually working in the field. And that doesn't have to be fancy. Yeah, that can just be talking to the folks out on the floor. Hey, we went through that training last week, you know. Do you have any questions? Well, let me point this out to you to kind of drive the message home. So so there's different ways to to and, you know, ensure the effectiveness of training. It doesn't it's not just a test at the end of the training, you know, to make sure they were paying attention. It's after the fact is even more important. Absolutely. Speaking of I'm want to check my son's room as soon as I get home. I'm not going to take myself because I have a fourteen year old. Sorry, he just turned picking up a fifteen year old boy and this is a mistinking. I gotta check it now. Let me Sol with all the years of safety experience you have. You know, we talked about failures or ups and downs. Is there, if there was, one piece of advice that you can give to you know, you're young. You could get to your younger self getting started in the safety feel based off of, you know, any you know, bad cases or scenarios kids, you kind of what would you tell yourself who? Yeah, when I think of me as a baby, Eh, a specialist, you know, I sometimes want a rock in a corner with what I didn't know and you know the stupid mistakes that I made and you know, gods, if I could go back and tell that, tell that little kid that I was back then, you know what was what was right and wrong. Yeah, I'll give you an example. This is not a...

...serious one, but I remember I was responsible for the safety data sheets, Material Safety, day to sheets back then and, you know, first couple of months on the job, like why do we have all these old ones? Let's just recycle all these old ones and then I'll learn like a year later, Oh, okay, safety day to sheets are like medical records. You got to keep them for thirty years. Oops, you know, oops. But you know, I think, I think what any of us as we're young, you know, when we're young, we know everything. We can take over the world, right, I think, and even, you know, as older and more, you know, season professionals, I still think we feel like, you know, we've lived it, we know it. Engaging, you know, the people that you work with, engaging the people that, if you're a health and safety person, engaging the the the people that are your workers, the reason why you're doing these these programs, you know, talking to people and getting their perspective, what works, what doesn't work. You know, ask them what are your health and safety concerns? You know so many times, you know, as a health and safety professional, we tell people what they need to be you need to be concerned about, you know, the guard on this equipment. You need to be concerned about lockout, tag out. You need to do this and because there are regulatory programs that are very prescriptive about that, and so we're making sure we're meeting those regulatory obligations. But you know what, maybe there's something else that that's worrying. You know your colleague, your your fellow employee out on the floor and and just engaging with people, understanding, you know, what it is that works well for them, for the for them to work safely, understanding what doesn't work and really soliciting that, that feedback. I think, when I think, both when you're young and on the job, it's easy to think you know everything because you just, you know, finished a degree or program or certificate. You got it, and and then I think also as seasoned professionals, you kind of feel like you've lived it, you got it. But regardless of where you are in your career, just pausing and talking to people and getting that feedback and engaging you know your identifying who your stakeholders are and really engaging them is critical. Are there any common beliefs in the safety field that you don't necessarily agree with? Lots know, a lot of them know nothing. I don't know that there is common belief that I would, you know, know, not agree with, but but instead I'll share maybe some traps that I see people fall into and and a trap that I see a lot of companies fall into a specially if they're kind of at that size where maybe they don't have any hs professional or you know, you know, just a health and safety professional might be a hat that people were and they feel like, Hey, once I get this ehs professional just everything's going to be better. I can give all of this to that health and safety professional and I don't have to worry about it anymore. That's a trap I see a lot of people fall into. And even if they're a larger organization, they have a whole department or whole group that that are that, you know, that facilitate health and safety. You know, to think that health and safety is just that department or that person's responsibility is there is a really troublesome trap because, you know, as we all know, it's not enough for me to know, you know, what's right or what's wrong or what's say or what's not say, for for you to know, you know, it's important for the person that's handling that chemical to understand. It's important for the person that's about to engage in, you know, a maintenance task that needs to know the hazardous energy and how to isolate that hazardous energy. So it's never enough just to have a professional on site. You've got to make sure you have that buy in throughout and and use use that professional on site or that decade apartment or person as a resource and as a tool and not, as you know, Oh that person will take care of it, we're good. Yeah, definitely sounds like it has to be, you know what team effort, from what you're saying. So I definitely agree with you on Eddie. And is there anything that you know we should kind of stop doing when it comes to safety and your opinion? You know, again just relying on one person. You know, I think is it if you if you're listening to this and you're like, oh, yeah, I kind of do that. Definitely stop doing that. And I don't know so much of a stop doing because in my mind, if you're doing something relative to health and safety, at least you're doing something. So so the only thing I would say is stop doing is, you know, stop making it automatic. Don't just go through the motions. You know, if you've got a checklist, don't just do the checklist. Remember why we're doing you know, all of it. It's so easy for us to get task focused and task centric that we forget why we're doing it sometimes. So, if anything,...

I would say, you know, stop focusing on the to do list sometimes and start remembering why you have those tasks on your to do list. We're all doing more with less and we're, you know, especially in this labor market right now, it things are crazy, you know, so just to kind of lift your head up every now again and remember why, why it is that we're doing these things that we're doing in the health and safety world. Okay, want to switch gears just a little bit and if you can, can you speak to any challenge, which is being a woman in the safety feel? I know depend on all what area it is male dominated. Have there been any challenges, you know, being a woman in the safety feel to watch your career? You know, I can definitely recognize that that there are. There are women in our career that have had challenges, and I'm not saying mine has not been without challenges, but but I will say I was a bit of a tomboy growing up and my parents really supported me and in being the the type of child that I was. I was always the only girl that when I was grow in the little town that I grew up on. There was not female sports and male sports. There's not boysco score, Boys Leagues and Girl Leagues. It was one league and I was the only girl in the tea ball the league. I was the only girl in the soccer league. I was the only girl and just about every sports league. So I would say my foundation has been one that I've had the opportunity to where, you know, I'm used to walking into the room and sometimes being the only female. And then you when I went to college I was I was an engineer. So again, a female and an engineering program is not the the majority. So I would say I feel like I have a pretty decent footing because of those experiences I had very young. But I mean, everybody's going to have challenges with their job, right. So maybe you know there and maybe you they're a female and a male dominated world. Maybe there are a male and a female dominated area. Maybe there's issues of religion or sexuality or race. You know that that you know could cause some you know, potential division or what have you. Again, I just find talking to folks yea and and realizing once you start talking and and getting and in a health and safety you got to talk and engage people. You can't do health and safety behind a desk. You got to be out there talking to people, you know, winning friends and influencing people. And and I think if you're approaching any situation from that standpoint of, you know, maybe being a minority in a space or maybe having some reservations in a space, to meet a head on and just approach people as people and realize when it comes down to it, you know, we're all people. You blood runs for all of our veins. Absolutely probably all love our kids and, you know, worry about you know, what keeps us out the night. I mean, when it comes down to it, we're all made at the same stuff. Yeah, it says sometimes you have to find ways to break through those layers to realize that we're all made at the same stuff. Absolutely absolutely. You have mentioned when we had spoken also you were a big fan of hazard recognition train. Can you kind of go over that with us in explain that to us? Yeah, so, so I'll kind of jump back also to that whole management system conversation. We had plan to check act right. I key part of checking is to make sure you know the resources and the tools and the protocols you've put into place or working, and that can be things like a daily safety inspection or a weekly safety inspection, you know, a pre work safety inspection, you know, something where you're getting a snapshot a time before I start this task or before I do whatever. Things are safe the this sometimes it's easy to do a checklist, but but it's difficult to recognize that my perspective in developing that checklist is going to be different from the perspective of the person that's completing the checklist. And if I ask a question like you know, you know, is the guard properly affixed, you know, to the device? If they don't know what proper what a proper guard is, they're not going to have the knowledge they need to do that checklist correctly. So, hazard recognition training, it's just that, you know, it's easy for us to say be safe, work safe, let us know the safety concerns. But if common sense is neither common nor sense. Sometimes, and and so, especially when you talk about something with health and safety, what I recognize as a hazard and my profession is going to be very different than somebody that maybe is outside of that health and safety for you...

...know, profession is going to direct take Nice. So hawzard recognition training. It's just an opportunity for everybody to get on the same footing of what's right and what's wrong with this picture. You know, this is what a proper fight cabinet looks like. You know, notice how there's no cardboard boxes in here. Notice there's no combustible materials. This is an example of a combustible material. Or Hey, this container has a label. Notice this container does not have a label. Or this container of the label is kind of falling off. So giving people the tools in the knowledge that they need to be able to identify hazards so that once a hazard is identify then you can exercise. All right, how are we going to address this hazard? You know what, what are we going to do? And and you kind of kickstart that that plan. Do Check Act again, but you got to recognize a hazard before you can fix it. Absolutely plan. Dude, chick, I like that. I wrote that down to as far as like with certain trainings, are you writing trainees up yourself, or do you get materials from, you know, software? What do you do? How do you come up with your your materials? Yeah, we edit our own material and you know, of course, in the health and safety profession. We like shamelessly steal from lots of different resources. Right. So I don't know that there's any such thing as original health and safety content, because how original can you get when you're talking about something like lockout, tag out and Osha has? You know, your trainee shall include x, Y and Z. You know so. But yeah, we do, we do. You use an online platform for some of our courses. I mean we still author all of our content, but we use different platform. We use an online platform, will use webinar platforms and will use like facetoface. will also do different like job AIDS, which really, when you think about it, is kind of like a training but but we've we've mainly authored our own, you know, over the years, shamelessly stealing from, you know, Ocean's training resources and and and and you're consulting ocean guidance documents and and really just taking what is a lot of words in a regulation and and putting it into some type of, you know, presentation of information that is easily digestible and understandable, because reading the rags is not reading the legs is an art, it is not a science. Sometimes it takes a lawyer to kind of translate a lot of the Verbi as you have. So Yep, and a lot of coffee. Yeah, not. Let me ask you. Is there something that you know a lot of folks are doing that you'd maybe discovered a better way of doing it or better method of doing it that you can speak to? All right, so something everyone is trying to do that we've discovered a better way for? I can't say that I've discovered a better way for doing anything, but but I do think it's appropriate to kind of pause and and mention that. There's a lot of software and technology solutions out there and I know there's a early adopters of a lot of that type of technology and software and one thing I would just I would say don't adopt it. I would just say cautiously enter into some of those technology solutions to make sure they're right for you. You know, sometimes I do see folks kind of overly relying on the technology and they take the human element out of of a task at hand. And when you're talking about something like health and safety, you know to get the the perspective of somebody is is important, and I'm talking about health and safety tools to facilitate compliance right. I'm not talking about hey, if you can replace, you know, a task that is awful on Ergonomic scale with a tool that that is like spot on technology. I'm talking about technology that does a lot of data tracking and data management and data mining, which is really, really important. I'm not downplaying it, I'm just saying be careful that you still have the human element in it and that you're just not relying on what spits out from a software program. You know that you're actually taking a moment and saying, does this make sense? You know, does this, this this jive with what I'm seeing? Does this jive with what you know, the people on the floor are seen, and and not overly rely on technology. I think would be just, you know, just a not even a cautionary tale, just to be aware if you find yourself overly relying on on technology. I'll give you an example. We were doing an audit for somebody and I was checking their Osha record keeping and reporting logs and they had a software platform that they were entering it all in and I'm like, okay, great, well, can I see you know, I was just, you know, Oh, she says you got to keep those records for what five years. I'm like, great, can you show it to me from four years ago? And they couldn't pull it. And so you it was an overreliance on that software and there was, you know, not saying that the software...

...cut they didn't know how to pull the the back data. They could see exactly what was they were tracking right then and there, but they had overly relied on that information being in there and easily accessible and they were eventually able to get it, but it took them a while to figure out how to pull the last, you know, five years worth of records and you know Dat. You know, being able to recover data like that is important. So just again, over reliance on on technology. Just just to be aware if you find yourself falling into that, that trap. Okay, and let me ash you. Is there any want there it? Is there anything, in your opinion, the Fok should stop doing when it comes to safety? All right, so what some people stopped doing? So let me let me preface my comment. I'M gonna say don't only focus on compliance, but I want to be clear. Compliance is important when it at the end of the day, Osha expects you to be in compliance. As we're talking about help and safety or or if you happen to be sitting in California Cowlo show or whatever area you are, compliance is important. One thing that I would just say is don't only focus on compliance, you know, because if you're only focusing on compliance, you might not be, you know, identifying those areas that you know you have an opportunity to, you know, improve a working situation. You know, go I'm going to go back to the hazard recognition right, you could be meeting all of your regulatory obligations, but there could be a hazard that you know exists, that you that it by just going through the motions and only focusing on, you know, compliance, or I did this checklist today. Okay, I did this training today. Okay, I did this today, but only checking off your to do list and again not, as I mentioned earlier, not pausing periodically lifting your head up. Why am I doing this, and and reassessing and refocusing. I think if you put your head down and you only focus on compliance, sometimes you're missing those opportunities for continuous improvement. You're missing those opportunities to make a working environment maybe a little bit better or a little bit safer. You're missing that opportunity maybe even for like an organomic improvement or something along those lines. So compliance is important. You know, I'm I'm the practice leader for our compliance team. I'm not telling your compliance isn't important. I would just say you're just don't overly focus on on compliance. Remember why it is that we're doing those tasks and so that you can really exercise again, the plan do check act to drive continuous improvement. Okay, and what would you say to those business owners that really don't want to spend money one safety want to try to you know, as a you know I tell people all the time safety is a business to spense. I know as a business owner, you want those about your bottom line. What do you say to those it want to take shortcuts and spend as less as possible? If anyone saved? Yeah, you know, that's always a challenge, right, and it kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier. It's just, you know, we're all people. Were all cut of the same cloth. We just need to have those conversations and figure out what's important to that person and bring it down to that level. Your what is the common denominator that we can then build off of? And if money, if money is the concern and and you know, business owners in this economy and in this job market post pandemic, you know, I have sympathy and empathy for the struggles. So if money, if it's if it all comes down to money, you know, sharing with them what a workplace injury cost. You know it is. You know you've got not only the the cost associated with the actual, you know, workplace injury and the resulting workers comp you know, depending on the nature of the industry, you know, you could be shut down for a couple of days while Oh she's doing an investigation. You could have loss of workers confidence and and you can have, you know, just you know, folks that that quit or kind of give up in their job and stop caring. You know, if you've ever worked at an organization that's had a serious incident, you know there's a morale drop that that happens after that that greatly affects productivity and the bottom line, you know. So you know, if money is the common denominator, then then bring it down to that common denominator. And if it's other things that are the common denominator, then then then leverage. That the nice thing about safety is. There's a bunch of different entry points. You know, if it's money, you talk about what what a workplace you know, injury or illness cost. You know, if it's compliance, then then you start. You I don't want to be on the news, I don't want to violation, I don't want to inspection. You find what that driving forces and you leverage that, that driving force and some I have some clients that are like, I just want to be in compliance, it's all...

I care about. Well, you know, at least they care about being in compliance. That that's something I can work with absolutely. Speaking of workplace injuries, I'm pretty sure you've experienced a lot of different things in the safety can you give us a story of, you know, maybe some tragic happening on the job side, just to kind of bring it on to my listeners and I ask, I asked every guess that I have give me a story, just to share what I am very fortunate that I do not have a person small story along those lines, but I have worked at organizations that had those serious incidents and they are life changing. You know, I worked at one facility that had a fatality and and the fatality was associated with lockout, Tagout, or I should say failure to lock out, and the the employee was pulled into a machine. And you could talk to some of the employees that were at that at that site, that were there the day it happened, and there was a change that came over them as they talked about it. And one thing that I thought was, you know, really meaningful and pactful is that on the nitor anniversary of that fatality, every day there was always a safety stand down. We didn't call them safety standdowns back then, but that's what they would be called now. We had a safety standdown where, you know, the people that were there that day, that remembered, shared their story, you know, and talked about, you know what it you know how awful it was. You know, there they talked about their relationship with that individual that you know, that died as a result of that that injury, and it's it is life altering, you know, for you to experience that. Thankfully, I haven't experienced that personally, but I've seen it. I've seen what what it's done. You know, another experience that I had very young in my career. So you asked me what did. What did baby Jackie do first, a few days on the job. First, I think it was my first month on the job. One of our sister facilities, the there was an individual, he was a manager, supervisor manager role, was walked off the job after twenty five years and he was walked off the job after twenty five years because he failed to exercise lockout tige out. And that was a different companies calling different things. Safety absolute cardinal rule. And, you know, for for me to be about a month into my career as a whole, you know, my first real job, you know, and and see that, see somebody that had worked for the Company for two thousand and twenty five years getting walked off the job, no questions asked. You failed to exercise lockout tag out, you know, getting walked off the job. That was also an impactful you know, thankfully, that was impactful on more of a proactive measure as opposed to impactful, you know, because of an actual, you know, workplace incident or injury it you know, as we all know, with lockout tag out, it could have been a lot worse. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We've been here at my company Lockout Tagout Arc Flash. We've been, you know, going over that. You know, last couple of months real tough with a lot of our clients. So, but I appreciate that. Jackie. Before we let you go, is there anything you want to leave? What our listeners? Any messages? Anything you want to tell us before we go? Who about thousand safety or it's Oh, I got lots of things I can say. Yeah, I'll keep it to the health and safety message. I'll you know, I'll just say remember why we do it. We are all so busy, you know, and we are all I mean we are all worn out, we are all fatigued, we are all so over everything. These lasts what sixteen, eighteen months have been hard on everybody, yes, and and and hard on a hard on everybody for different reasons. And so you know, when we're talking about health and safety, you know whether it's protecting yourself and others from, you know, exposure to the covid nineteen virus, or whether it's about working safely on the job, about it's whether, you know, hey, I'm getting on the roof this weekend too, you know, clean the leaves out of my gutter. You know, just always pause and reflect. What is it that I'm about to do? You know, what do I need to do to be able to do this safely and then do it safely, as opposed to just going through your task lists marking another thing off, getting another thing done so you can get onto the next thing, so you can get onto that, you know, that next zoom call or that next whatever. Just pause, take a moment to do it right. Yeah, and there you have it, folks, good hazard recognition training. I sold fourteen thousand one forty five hundred and one management systems. Are Good on boarding program for your company. Just a few things, Jackie backsleet, thank you again. With HRP associates. Appreciate you. Thank you for...

...spending time with me. Hopefully we can do it again. Yes, thanks, my Govin. I've enjoyed I'm looking forward to our next conversation. They I'll be I'll give you a call there like. Hey, I think this is a good one for you. They we can do this again. Absolutely, folks. Thank you for joining the Safety Management Show again. I'm your host, Mike being with Safety Services Company, and A to next time. Stay safe. In need of a blueprint for workplace safety and compliance. Safety Services Company is North America's leading provider of Safety Training and compliant solutions. We supply custom safety manuals and policies and onsite and online training solutions that will enhance the safety of your workplace, and our compliance services will save you time and resources, guaranteeing peace of mind. With eighteen years in the industry, we have a proven track record of helping customers achieve better safety outcomes by providing customized solutions that fit the unique needs of each business. To learn more, head to safety services COMPANYCOM. Thanks for listening to the Safety Management Show. To hear more stories from safety leaders, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you enjoyed the show, leave us a rating. Until next time, stay safe.

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