The Safety Management Show
The Safety Management Show

Episode 13 · 1 month ago

Plan, Do, Check, Act: Management Systems in Environmental Health & Safety w/ Jackie Baxley


Management systems are a great way to assess and control environmental health and safety issues within your organization. They help you along the implementation journey ensuring you get buy-in at every level.

So how do you go about using a management system? 

The framework to remember: plan, do, check, act. 

In this episode, Jackie Baxley , Principal and EHS Practice Leader at HRP Associates, Inc. , talks about how management systems work and best practices for acquiring certifications.

We discuss:

- Working with clients on COVID programs and protocols

- Management systems, like ISO 14,001 and ISO 45,001

- What makes for a good onboarding system

- Advice for new safety professionals

- Hazard recognition and training

Hear more stories from safety professionals by subscribing in Apple Podcasts , Spotify, or visiting our website .

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for The Safety Management Show in your favorite podcast player.

You're listening to the SafetyManagement Show where safety professionals share engaging storiesabout their time in the trenches and the hard earned lessons they've learnedalong the way. Let's dig in thank you for joining us for another episode ofthe Safety Management Show. I am your host Mike Dean with Safety ServicesCompany and today we have a special guest. She brings well over twenty years ofexperience in the safety field. She is the principal and e h s practice leaderat H. R P associates joining me today is Jackie, bacle May Jackie. How areyou today doing well Mike How's it going thanks for having me on today orthank you for joining us going well On our end out here inArizona and we're in a oven cooking. So I think we all are in an oven right nowso yeah where you're you're in good company and you get the dry heat, I gotthe humid heat, so I wouldn't trade you any day. I tell you that I'll take thisright every time, so Jackie first of all, tell us alittle bit about yourself how you got into safety and maybe some of the workyou all are doing over at hr associates yeah, absolutely so so! Yes, I've been,as you mentioned, in the intro. I've been in the ENS field for over twentyyears. I started my career in industry, so I went to school, got anenvironmental engineering degree. First job out of school was in industry,where I was an environment, engineer, responsible for environment complianceat a textile company that textile company had a phenomenal environmental and health andsafety program, so they their baseline, was always above and beyond what theregulations actually required. So it was a great place to cut my teeth. Itwas a great place to see kind of what a world class you know. Environmental andhealth and safety program looks like, and, and so I was in, I was in theindustry, textile and then the chemical manufacturing industry in those rolesof environmental, with a bit of health and safety for about the the first nineor ten years of my career in the last fourteen, some odd years, I've beenhere at hr P, where I threatened those experiences that that I got from beingon the other side of the table, an industry as a consulted to help. Youknow our clients are stakeholders meet whatever their regulatory obligationsare, but not just meet them. You know find solutions that work for them,because every work place is nuanced: every workplace has their ownchallenges, so our company H, R P, we've been providing engineering,environmental, Hydrogeologie and compliance assistance to companiessince th s. So so I've been able to threaten my experiences of being a doerso to speak in industry and a D and threating those in for solutions thatwork for our clients, specifically here at HP, I'm the practice leader for ourenvironmental and health and safety practice. So I help facilitate the teamof environmental and health and safety professionals that we have here. Youknow focusing my role is the practice leader is primarily to focus on quality,on staff development and on Business Development, but I was in the trenchesyou know for the first, you know ten years here here at HP and I still getto the trenches. You know because, as my philosophy is, you can't lead apractice if you don't get out there and practice as well, so so I enjoy thedays that I get to get out there and do all that do training. Do you knowhealth and safety inspections and get my hands dirty again? Vice is theirspecific industries you all deal with. There is kind of all over the place orwould exactly you know it's really all over the place, and it really kind ofdepends on what part of our practice. So you know, with the our environmentaland in our engineering practice works a lot with municipalities. Work, walkwith attorneys works. A lot with you know real estate developers orspeculators because we're getting involved in maybe to stress properties.You know looking at clean up solutions, you know Brown field redevelopment, andso in that space you know, attorneys real estate developers. You knowfinancial institutions and and as well as industry, that might be Potitianresponsible parties and those types of situations on the compliance side,which is where I work. It's everybody it's. If you have an environmental orhealth and safety, you know regulation that you're subject to we're, probablyworking with you. So we've worked in the healthcare industry and the HigherEducation Industry K through twelve and obviously construction and in generalindustry as well so yeah, the the...

...environmental you might have a smallerregulatory for print depending on you know what what sector you're in, butyou if you've got employees you got Osha so being out a kind of want to tackle. Itis at the beginning of this interview, just with the everything going on withCovin, and you know, fascinations mandate, things that nature. How has Ilike the Covie? You know for lack of a better term? How have you all been ableto deal with your client, tile and ating and assisting as some of theprotocols you know dealing with co? Yeah Ace, it's funny that you mentionedthat, because just before you- and I have done this- call to record- I wasdoing a Weben or you know for for folks on. What's the latest and greatestguidance from from CDC, as well as from Osea uses, were as we're recording.This were kind of in the thick of the Delta surge across the unit UnitedStates. So back in March of two thousand and twenty as a company, wereally recognize that you know, as the providers of you know, risk managementservices, compliance services as well as we get involved in you know,Asbestos, abatement and and and project management, as well as like facilitydecommissioning, has mat clean up in response. We realize that we couldreally thread our experiences in those areas and really tailor it to the verynew and unique challenges that cod had posed. You know, because back in Marchtwo thousand and twenty you couldn't find anybody that had experiencebecause it was a. It was a whole new ball game for anybody. So so we wereable to recognize that what we do is environmental health and safetyprofessionals. You know what we do, as has mat services really easily pivotedinto that that coved space, so we assist clients on various levels. Oneof the levels is, we helped our clients, you know, assess their workplaces, seewhere their risk factors were and helped to Taylor controls andprevention strategies to allow employees, especially those employeesthat, were you know in that that critical infrastructure to continue towork but continue to work safely. You know whether that met you know rotating.You know changing the way rotated shifts, whether that meant. You know Iidentifying those positions that was critical to be there, but when was itcritical for them to be their physical distancing? You know reassessing how wedo the break rooms and everything, so we really helped with those we calledthem. The COVIN Nineteen Preparedness Response and Prevention plans, andobviously a part of that was making sure we identified what we're going todo. If we have an outbreak before we have an outbreak. The number of callsthat we got, I hey, we just had a outbreak. What do we do? You know byhaving a a plan ahead of time? It just makes it a lot easier. You know whenyou're faced with those challenges, just like any AMERES action plan thatyou would have for any health and safety program, So we assisted in theplanning- and we also assisted in the project management, Super Visisupervision and actually cleaning and disinfecting of work spaces that had anoutbreak or head cases, and we really made sure that that we tailored thosecleaning and disinfection you to what was appropriate in scale and nature toto what they were dealing with. You know we didn't come in and cleaneverything you know, because it might have been isolated to one area and ifthey had a good ovid plan in place, then you were able to keep it in thatone area and not have to you know, spend exorbiant amount of money and anexorbiant amount of downtime to fully clean and disinfect. So from a businessperspective. We really pivoted into that place from an employer perspective,you we, we were essential services as the the provider of environmental,health and safety compliance support. We continued be essential services andwe are still hopping on planes. Sometimes you know to go help clients.In an emergency situation. We were going into facilities, so we reallystayed up to date with the latest and greatest of what CDC was recommending.We always had conversations with our client. It wasn't just showing up atthe door, Hey I'm here, really making sure what what are your protocols? Whatare the protocols in your state? Because at one point in time we had toreally focus on who can we send out to a particular job, because if they werejust in one state and the state that they're about to go to is a state thatwon't let somebody from that state come in without quarantining for two weeksthat could really affect a project, so our operations in our communicationreally stepped up, because just the distribution of people you had toreally take into consideration. You know what the patch work ofrequirements were across across the nation. Absolutely do you for see, movefor it in the future, because, honestly, we don't know if Ovid is going anywhere.I know numbers are spiking, but do you see a lot of changes coming as far astrainees may be moving to more online?...

So meetings for you know a lot oftrainings and going on on on a job. So I think we're going to s what I'mstarting to experience is kind of a mixed bag, some clients and- and someyou know, work spaces and and some cultures have really adopted, thatonline format and it works for them and it works well for them. Where others,you know, they don't want to sit in front of the screen in another minute.So you know they're eager to get that face to face training that hands ontraining. So you know the way that I look at training into the future basedoff of what we've learned and experienced through coved. I think wejust have more resources at our disposal and when getting you know whenyou're talking about production operations and the amount of downtimeit might take for certain classes or trainings that are required. I thinkit's nice that employers have additional options now, whether it'sonline, whether it's Weber or whether it's recorded whether it's in person,so that it's just not it's training for a long time hasn't been a one. Sizefits all, but I feel like there's just a lot more tools in our tool belt tocontinue to Taylor it, but yeah I've got clients that are calling me and say:Please come in and do face to face training. I cannot handle another Weben.I cannot handle another zoom call. I cannot handle another anything likethat, so so we're. I think what we're going to see is a lot of face to face,because people kind of need that and then I think, we'll see a hybrid movingmoving forward. Yeah Yeah. I agree. I am glad that the schools I know outhere in Arizona are back open. I know my kids are tired of the online andit's not the same. So I can imagine you on translate into these trainers aswell. I want to for my listeners, get a pad and pen read. I want you kind of togo over for a lot of my Liese said. Don't know, I know we kind of reallytalked about the I so fourteen thousand and one canyou kind of explain what that is and giveit to us and lamins terms. Jackie right yeah, absolutely because I know youlike to talk to your guest about you know what they think folks are notutilizing to the best of the ability or what you think folks should stop doing,and so on and management systems. I think, are a great approach reallymanaging anything. We're talking about health and safety here right, but but amanagement system can help you kind of assess and control quality can help youassess and control occupational health and safety or environmental issues orenergy management. It's really whatever it is. You're trying to control andinfluence you can tie up into a management system and and the basicprinciples of any management system is what's called plan. Do Check Actplaying what you're going to do. Do it check to make sure it's workingor that you're doing what you said, you're going to do and then act whenyou see you know, issues of non compliance or non conformants or thingsslipping or people, not understanding the training or what have you? And soit's that cyclical nature of always somewhere within that cog or multipleplaces at the call. At one time of plan due check that and the there areinternational standards out there for what would be considered a managementsystem, I so fourteen thousand and one, for example, is the InternationalStandards Organization for an environmental management system. I soforty five thousand and one is the international standard for anoccupational safety and health management system. The Nice thing isthat you know it seems like health and safety professionals, also where theenvironment hat environment professionals, sometimes where thehealth and safety hat the nice thing is that those two standards aline prettywell, so you could easily make it an environmental and health and safetymanagement system because there's a lot of overlap, but when we look at let'sjust talk about health and safety and the I so forty five thousand and onestandard, if you look at how that breaks down to plan due checked act,you know and you're planning, you're doing things like hazard assessments.You know where's my highest hazard areas. What existing controls do I need?Where do I need to get better controls, so you go through hazard assessment.You go through. What are your regulatory obligations, and so youidentify not only what of your regulatory obligations because of Oshaor any state equivalent, but but also what are the needs and expectations ofsome of our say holders? You may be your union shop and so there's yourstake holders being the union or the represented the workers representativesmight have some additional expectations. Have you maybe you're a manufacturingand your your customer base has some expectations, so it's not just theregulatory requirements is what I like to call the regulatory and otherrequirements. You know everything that... really need to threaten to youryour health and safety system to meet those expectations of your stakeholders. Then your setting goals and objectives and looking foropportunities for improvement all within that planning section and thenonce you kind of got your plan all right. This is what I'm going to focuson these this. This is what I got to do because there's a regulation- or thisis what I need to do, because, as I do my risk assessment you know is a highor it's a rest that we're not comfortable with. Then you start toimplement control strategies for that and, as you look at health and safety,your training and awareness is a control strategy. Having writtenprograms is a control strategy making sure everybody knows what theirexpectations are within that that written program, but was reallyimportant as you're looking at these controls, how are we going to controlwhat it is that we said we need to control is really getting the buyingand involvement of, not just management a lot of times these management systemdevelop. You know, as you're developing you're pulling in managers you'repulling in supervisors, and that is very important, but it's even moreimportant to make sure that we have those frontline workers involved. Youknow so that, as we're developing a training program to control these risks,as were developing written procedures to control these risks as we're puttinginto place roles and responsibilities and structures to control this riskthat that we've got that representation at the table. You know what's going towork, what's not going to work. Where are we going to get the by? In that way,we really have a bottom up and in the top down approach that will help uswith a successful management system. So you plan what you're going to do youdevelop tools to do it, and then you check to make sure that is actuallyworking and that can be anything from internal inspections. Monitoring andreporting mat can be audits. It's it could be your daily safety walks, itsessentially anything that you're doing to make sure that all those controlsyou put into place are controlling what you need them to control they'reworking, they're, providing you know the intended outcomes that you that youwanted and and you're looking for opportunities for improvement and asyou find those opportunities for improvement, you're actually acting onthem. You know you're re engaging. You know those front line, workers, you'rere, engaging your stake holders and you you're really looking toward continuousimprovement. So I so forty five thousand has a pretty. You knowprescriptive. You Know Road Map. If you will for how to do it and there aredrivers for getting that specific certification a lot of times it mightbe. A customer driver, a customer says you gotta have the certification, buteven if you're not going forward the full certification just exercising thatplan do check act, your system will really help. You make sure that you'refocusing on what you need to focus on what you're doing is working and thatyou're always looking for those opportunities for improvement, good God.Now let me ask you: Is there a certain size of company that you wouldrecommend for them to get the ice? So fourteen thousand one or the forty fivehundred a yeah? You know the beautiful thing about the Aso Standard is thatare very scalable. You know I've seen ginormous fortune, five hundredcompanies that have I so certification and I've seen you know single operation,mom and pop shops that that have it as well. You know the Nice thing is thatit gives you a road map, but you know you can drive whatever car you need onthat journey, so it's scalable not only to the size of your operation, but it'salso scalable to the type of your operation. So you can thread it into.You know a construction. You know company, you can thread it in to anyindustry. You can thread it into hospitals, health care, education, it'sagain it's a rod map, but but it's a rod mat that anybody buddy can follow.Now, when you're, seeking assistance and and getting this done, is there anyparticular companies any certain companies that can do this can't dothat as far as helping you set it up and get that certification yeah. Sothere's a couple of different kind of approaches if you will so, for example,at P we're a consulting company, and so sometimes you might engage a consultingcompany that you have a relationship with that can help you develop amanagement system to meet your goals and objectives. If your goals andobjectives are to get that certification, then you know consultantcan make sure that you did all the eyes cross of the teas. Follow that Road Mapyou know to where you have a system that is going to be. You know botheffective but then also be able to be certified by a third party. certifieryou, my company, for example, we're not a third party. You know certifying youagency once you develop your program, you get at work in and you've exercisedit to where somebody actually has something that they can audit andverify. Once you get your management system to a certain point, and you dowant that certification, that's where you would engage a certifying body, youe, for example, when I was in industry,...

...we used underwriter laboratory, but butthere's you know dozens and dozens of certifying agencies out there that cancertify you to a nice. Forty, five thousand on one standard. A lot of yourlisteners, you know, might already have like the ISO nine thousandcertification, which is the quality management system. So what what I seemost folks doing is that they already have like a quality management system.That's been certified, they go to that sane, registering body and you know,there's some lines that you need to be careful not to cross right. You want tomake sure your registering body is completely removed from your system, soyou don't normally have the same entity certifying your system as you wouldhaving. You know help your system, but so if you were engaging in a consultantor a third party provider to help you develop your system, you just want tomake sure that they have experience that they understand the standard theycan help. You develop a system, that's going to work for you a lot of times,I'll get a call hey. How long will it take for me to get it? I sow forty fivethousand in one system I'm like well, it depends if you just want a systemthat can be certified, but you have no intention of actually exercising it.You know I could do that for you in a couple of weeks and never even engageit, but it's going to fall flat on its face. You'll get your certification andthen you know, and then the next time you have to get certified is going tobe painful. You're you, you really want it. You really want participation andbuy and throughout all levels of the organization. So really to do it right.You know to go from zero to a system. You know I like to dedicate you knowsix to twelve months, so that we can really work on it together. We can gothrough each of those steps together so that we get the Dat by and we get thethe participation we've done it in the shortest three months before. But youknow, if you're, if your goal is just to get certified, then you know thosesystems honestly are not as strong, but if your goal is to really buy in andparticipate into, what the system is. The management system is and getcertification. Then those systems are typically a lot more stronger. They get,you know, really absorbed into the culture of the organization, a lotbetter and it really becomes a tool to help facilitate compliance infacilitate continuous improvement. Okay now, but let me ask you this: Would youconsider you know, having a management system is what you consider that at aresource or a tool that people may be not using to his fullish, will that bean area yeah? I think I think you could again, and it does not have to be anISO forty, five thousand and one certified system to be a a system. Ithink folks, just are you know as a whole or probably not using that plando checked act process to its fullest extent. You know I'll give you anexample, so many times I'll I'll go to a facility and we're helping them outwith whatever they need help with, and they might say well yeah do thischeckless every week and I'll ask well well. Why do you do that check listevery week and the answer is sometimes well. I don't know it's just what wasalways done, and so, if you don't pause and say whatis it that I need to focus on, then you could be spinning your wheels on thingsthat are really maybe not value ad. You really are not addressing what yourrisk or might not be addressing with your hazards or might be addressingsomething that was needed. You know three years ago or six months ago, butnow with the process changes or with new regulations or with other factors.Maybe it's not necessary any more. So one of the key aspects of that plan dochecked at system. Is the continuously assess? Are you doing what needs to bedone? Are you focusing on what needs to be focused on so that you're notspending your wheels doing something? That's not value added or that, even onthe other side that you haven't evaluated or identified, something thatyou really need to be focusing on by pausing periodically reassessing youknow. Are you focus focused on the right things and, if not to kind, ofcourse, correct and make sure that that you, you address those and a good wayto start honestly as an audit. Just where are you now in your compliancejourney and where do you need to be, and sometimes that's just a goodfooting on which to kind of jump off relative to developing a system? M?Okay- and you know we have you know when we had spoke in our pre interview.We get kind of spoke about some of the failures that you know. A lot ofcompanies could be headed, for I recall you and I and I bring this upwhat we were talking about Ovid when you you mentioned about having a goodon boarding system, a lot of t e Y. U K O workforce getting back to work. Whatdoes that look like? What does a good on boarding system looks like? What doyou want to make sure that you absolutely have covered yeah? You knowand and that's going to you gosh, I'm just going to answer that from a healthand safety stand for it right, because you've got quality. You've got you theculture of your organization, you got everything from what day is pay day,and you know. Where are the bathrooms? I mean there's so many different thingsthat are in on boarding program but but...

...from a health and safety standpoint.REPETITION is really going to be key in the early days of any new employee andI'm glad that you brought this up because I do think it's very timelybecause you know, as folks are getting back to work as, as you know, companiescontinue to struggle with staffing issues and again it doesn't matter ifyou're in the restaurant industry in the you other service industry andmanufacturing. You know everybody is having staffing woes at this point intime, either a lot of turnover or no job applicants for what you have, andso you know you know on boarding, is going to be really an imported and froma health and safety standpoint I'll go back to the management system in ahealth and safety standpoint as you're doing that planning and implementationyou're identifying what what's critical information your employees need to know,and and sometimes it's different, depending on what job they're in sodeveloping a training matrix for example. And so, if you have somebodygoing into a specific role or responsibility, you can reference totraining Matrix and say: Okay they're going to need this training withintheir first week. This training within their first thirty days. You know thistraining within the first ninety days and and what I really like to do is ismake sure you get some refresher training in there, because, when you'renew on a job I mean all of us have had a first day on the job. All of us haveat a first week or first month on the job. Every everything is new, and so Ithink the most important part of any on boarding program is repetition, sodon't just throw them in a room on Monday of their first day and gothrough a death by power, point presentation and then say: they've gottheir health and safety signed off on their on boarding and that's it andthey go on to the next. You know on boarding pass you check it if you'rethe health and safety you know, train or representative you check in withthem periodically review. It doesn't have to be a formal presentation, butjust touch base with them. Hey you remember, we talked about this. Let meshow you this. How is it relates to your job because you a lot of timeswith on boarding, you're doing it within their first week and they've noteven been out on the plant floor, yet I mean they don't even know really whatthey're doing yet and so to start talking about how health and safetythreads into that you know, the timing is really important and repute. titionis really important, yeah, absolutely repetition in the sports world. Iremember you know you go to practice. You practice the same place over andover again over and over again. So when the game is time, you're ready, so yetvery relatable. In the word I know we have meetings our manager the samething over and over again as to sometimes you like, oh my goodness like,but you need that repetition. I got to tell my son over and over E. DO yourchores, my daughters, do your choir repetition- and it really. You know itgoes from all aspects of life into the workforce, so right, yeah petition andnot only repetition. But what I like to do is the check and verify you knowyeah. So all right, so I've told you this three times I want to see you doit now or, like you were talking about with your kids, I've asked you to cleanyour room three times now. You've told me you've done it, I'm going toactually go look at your room to make sure you actually cleaned your room, soyou know that that can be applied to any training program. You know tocritique the effectiveness of your program and and to kind of check andverify that is actually working in the field and that doesn't have to be fancythat can just be talking to the folks out on the floor. Hey we went throughthat training last week. You do you have any questions. Well, let me pointthis out to you to kind of drive the message home so so there's differentways to and you know, ensure the effectiveness of training it. Doesn'tit's not just a test at the end of the training, you know to make sure theywere paying attention. It's after the fact is even more important, absolutelyspeaking of I'm going to check my sons wrong as soon as I get on me, I'm not going to take my cabecas. Ihave a fourteen year old. Sorry, he just turned picking up a fifteen yearold boy, and this was his stinkin. I got a check it now. Let me so withall the years of safety experience you have, you know we talk about failuresor ups and downs. Is there. There was one piece of advice that you could giveto. You know you're young. You could get to your younger self, gettingstarted in the safety field based off of you know any you know bad cases or scenarios kid you kind of.What would you tell yourself who yeah when I think of me as a baby, EH NSspecialist? You know I sometimes want to rock in a corner with what I didn'tknow and you know the stupid mistakes that I made and you know Gosh. If Icould go back- and you know tell that, tell that little kid that I was back.Then you know what was what was right and wrong yeah I'll give you an example.This is not a serious one, but I...

...remember I was responsible for thesafety data sheets material safety day sheets back then, and you know firstcouple of months on the job o. Why do we have all these old ones, let's justrecycle, all these old ones and then I'll learn like a year later? Oh okay,safety data sheets are like medical records. You got to keep them forthirty years hoops you know, but you know, I think I think what anyof us as we're young. You know when we're young. We know everything we cantake over the world right. I think- and even you know, as older and moreyou know, season professionals. I still think we feel like you know: We'velived it. We know it engaging. You know the people that you work with engagingthe people that, if you're a health and safety person engaging t e the peoplethat are your workers, the reason why you're doing these, these programs, youknow talking to people and getting their perspective, what works? Whatdoesn't work you know, ask them: What are your health and safety concerns youso many times you know as a health and safety professional. We tell peoplewhat they need to be. You need to be concerned about. You know the guard onthis equipment. You need to be concerned about lack at tag out. Youneed to do this and because there are regulatory programs that are veryprescriptive about that, and so we're making sure we're meeting thoseregulatory obligations. But you know what maybe there's something else thatthat's worrying. You know your colleague, your your fellow employee,out on the floor and and just engaging with people understanding you know whatit is that works well for them for the for them to work safely, understandingwhat doesn't work and really soliciting that that feedback. I think when Ithink, both when you're young and on the job, it's easy to think you knoweverything because you just know finished a degree or program or acertificate. You got it and, and then I think also as seasoned professionals,you kind of feel like you've lived it, you got it, but regardless of where youare in your career, just pausing and talking to people and getting thatfeedback and engaging you know your identifying who your stakeholders areand really engaging them is critical. Are there any common beliefs in thesafety field that you don't necessarily agree with plots now a lot of them? No! No. I don't know that there is commonbelief that I would you know know not agree with, but but instead I'll share,maybe some traps that I see people fall into and in a trap that I see a lot ofcompanies fall into, especially if they're kind of at that size, wheremaybe they don't have any agens, professional or or you know, just a health and safety professionalmight be a hat that people wear and they feel like hey once I get the chsprofessional, just everything's going to be better. I can give all of this tothat health and safety professional, and I don't have to worry about it anymore. That's a trap. I see a lot of people fall into and even if they're alarger organization, they have a whole department or whole group that that ares that you know that facilitate health and safety. You know to think thathealth and safety is just that department or that person'sresponsibility is. He is a really troublesome trap because you know, aswe all know, it's not enough for me to know you know what's right or what'swrong or what say for what's not say or for you to know. You know it'simportant, for you know the person. That's handling that chemical tounderstand it's important for the the person that's about to engage in. Youknow a maintenance task that needs to know the hazardous energy and how toisolate that hazardous energy. So it's never enough just to have aprofessional on site. You've got to make sure you have that by inthroughout and and use use that professional on site or that decade,apartment or person as a resource and as a tool and not as you know, Oh thatperson will take care of it. We're good yeah definitely sounds like it has tobe. You know a team effort from what you're saying, so I definitely agreewith you on that end. Is there anything that you know we should kind of stopdoing when it comes to safety? In your opinion, you know again just relying onone person. You know, I think, is if you, if you're listening to this andyou're like Oh yeah, I kind of do that. Definitely stop doing that and I don'tknow so much of a of a stop doing because in my mind, if you're doingsomething relative to health and safety at least you're doing something. So sothe only thing I would say is stop doing. Is You know, stop making itautomatic? Don't just go through the motions. You know if you've got a checklist, don't just do the checklist. Remember why we're doing you know allof it. It's so easy for us to get task foused in task centric that we forget.Why we're doing it sometimes. So if...

...anything I would say you know, stopfocusing on the to do list, sometimes and start remembering why you havethose tasks on your to do list we're all doing more with less and were inyou, especially in this labor market right now. It things are crazy. Youknow so just to kind of lift your head up every now and again and remember whywhy it is that we're doing these things that we're doing in the health andsafety world? Okay, one to switch years just a little bit, and if you can, canyou speak to any challenges being a woman in the safety field? I know, depending on what area it ismale dominated. Has there been any challenges you know, being a woman inthe safety field to watch your career? You know. I can definitely recognizethat that there are. There are women and in our career that have hadchallenges and I'm not saying mine has not been without challenges, but but Iwill say I was a bit of a tomboy growing up and my parents reallysupported me and in being the type of child that I was. I was always the onlygirl that, when I was grown in the little town that I grew up on, therewas not female sports and mail sports. There's not boys, Co score boy, beleagues and girl, Leagues, it was one league and I was the only girl in theteaball league. I was the only girl in the soccer league. I was the only girland just about every sports league, so I would say my foundation has been onethat I've had the opportunity to where you know I'm used to walking into theroom and sometimes being the only female, and then you when I went tocollege I was I was an engineer. So again, a female in an engineeringprogram is not he the majority, so I would say I feel like I have a prettydecent footing because of those experiences. I had very young, but Imean everybody's going to have challenges with their job right. Somaybe you know there may be you they're a female and a male dominated world.Maybe there are a male and a female dominated area, maybe there's issues ofreligion or sexuality or or race. You know that that you know could causesome. You know potential division or what have you again? I just findtalking to folks and and realizing once you start talking and getting and inhealth and safety you got to talk and engage people, you can't do health andsafe behind a desk. You got to be out there talking to people, you knowwinning friends and influencing people and- and I think, if you're approachingany situation from that standpoint of you know, maybe being a minority in aspace or maybe having some reservations in a space to meet it head on and justapproach people as people and realize when it comes down to it, you knowwe're all people, you know blood runs, though all of our veins. We probably all love our kids. You knowworry about. You know what keeps us out the night I mean when it comes down toit, we're all made of the same stuff yeah it's just. Sometimes you have tofind ways to break through those layers to realize that we're all made of thesame stuff. Absolutely absolutely you have mentioned when we had spoke. Also,you were a big fan of hazard recognition training. Can youkind of go over that with us and explain that tool us yeah, so so I'llkind of jump back? Also to that whole management system conversation we hadplanned to check act right. A key part of checking is to make sure you knowthe resources and the tools and the protocols you've put in the place areworking and that can be things like a daily safety inspection or a weeklysafety inspection. You know a pre work safety inspection. You know somethingwhere you're getting a snap shot of time before I start this task or beforeI do, whatever things are safe the this. Sometimes it's easy to do a checklist,but but it's difficult to recognize that my perspective in developing thatcheck list is going to be different from the perspective of the person.That's completing the check list and if I ask a question like you know, youknow, is the guard properly affixed. You know to the device if they don'tknow what proper, what a proper guard is they're not going to have theknowledge they need to do that check list correctly. So has a recognitiontraining, it's just that. You know it's easy for us to say, be safe, work, safe.Let us know the safety concerns, but if common sense is neither common norsense, sometimes and- and so especially when you talk about something withhealth and safety, what I recognize as a hazard in I my profession, is goingto be very different than somebody that...

...may be is outside of that health andsay, for you know, profession is going to recognize so hazard recognition.Training is just an opportunity for everybody to get on the same footing ofwhat's right and what's wrong with this picture. You know this is what a properfine cabinet looks like. You know, notice how there's no cardboard boxesin here notice, there's no combustible materials. This is an example of acombustible material or hey. This container has a label notice. Thiscontainer does not have a label, or this container the label is kind offalling off, so giving people the tools in the knowledge that they need to beable to identify hazards, so that once a hazard is identified, then you canexercise all right. How are we going to dress this? has or you know, what arewe going to do and, and you kind of kick strike that that plan do check actagain, but but you got to recognize a hazard before you can fix it absolutelyplan to check back. I like that. I wrote that down to as far as like withcertain trainings, are you writing trainings up yourself or do you givematerials from you know software? What do you do to? How do you come up withyour Materio Yeah? We edit our own material, and you know, of course, inthe health and safety profession. We, like shamelessly, steal from lots ofdifferent resources right, so I don't know that there's any suchthing as original health and safety content, because how original can youget when you're talking about something like lockout tag out and Osha? Has Youknow your training shall include Xyz, you know so, but yeah we do. We do usean online platform for some of our courses. I mean we still after all ofour content, but we use different platform. We use an online platformwill use weben platforms and we'll use like face to face will also dodifferent like job aids, which really when you think about it, is kind oflike a training, but but we've we've mainly offered our own. You know overthe years shamelessly stealing from you know, oseas trading resources and and and you consulting oceanguidance documents and and really just taking what is a lot of words in aregulation and putting it into some type of presentation of information that iseasily digestible and understandable. Because reading the rags is not readingthe rags is an art. It is not as I sometimes it takes a lawyer to kind of translate a lot of the verbis yeah, soyep and a lot of coffee. Not Let me ask you: Is there somethingthat you know? A lot of folks are doing that you may be discovered a better wayof doing it or better method of doing it that you can speak to right, sosomething everyone is trying to do that. We've discovered a better way, for Ican't say that I've discovered a better way for doing anything, but but I dothink it's appropriate to kind of pause and mention that there's a lot ofsoftware and technology solutions out there and I know, there's a earlyadopters of a lot of that type of technology and software. And one thingI would just I wouldn't say, don't adopt it. I would just say cautiously,enter into some of those technology solutions to make sure they're rightfor you. You know. Sometimes I do see folks kind of overly reline on thetechnology and they take the human element out of of a task at hand andwhen you're talking about something like health and safety, you know to getthe perspective of somebody is important, and I'm talking about healthand safety tools to facilitate compliance right. I'm not talking abouthey if you can replace you know a task that is awful on Ergonomic scale,with a tool that that is like spot on technology. I'm talking abouttechnology that does a lot of data tracking and data management and datamining, which is really really important. I'm not down playing it. I'mjust saying be careful that you still have the human element in it and thatyou're just not relying on what spits out from a software program. You knowthat you're actually taking a moment and saying, does this make sense? Youknow this is this is jibe with what I'm seeing this this jibe with what thepeople on the floor are seen and and not overly rely on technology, I think,would be just you know, just a not even a cautionary tale. Just to be be aware,if you find yourself overly relying on on technology I'll give you an example,we were doing an audit for somebody and I was checking their Osha recordkeeping and reporting logs and they had a software platform that they wereentering it all in and I'm like, okay great well, can I see you know I wasjust you know. Osha says you got to keep those records for what five yearsa great. Can you showed to me from four years ago and they couldn't pull it,and so you it was an over relliance on...

...that software, and there was, you knownot saying that the software cut they didn't know how to pull the the backdata. They could see exactly what was they were tracking right then and there,but they had overly relied on that information being in there and easilyaccessible, and they were eventually able to get it, but it took them awhile to figure out how to pull the last few five years worth of records,and you know dat you being able to recover data like that is important. So,just again over reliance on technology just just to be away. If you findyourself falling into that that trap, okay and he let me ast- Is there anyone they get? Is there anything in your opinion that folk should stop doingwhen it comes to safety all right? So what should people stop doing? So letme let me preface my comment, I'm going to say: Don't only focus on compliance, but Iwant to be clear. Compliance is important when, at the end of the day,Osha expects you to be in compliance as we're talking about health and safety,or, if you happen to be setting in California, Callosa or whatever areayou are, compliance is important. One thing that I would just say is: Don'tonly focus on compliance. You know, because if you're only focusing oncompliance, you might not be you know identifying those areas that you knowyou have an opportunity to. You know improve a working situation. You go I'mgoing to go back to to the hazard recognition right. You could be meetingall of your regulatory obligations, but there could be a hazard that you knowexists that you that by just going through the motions and only focusingon you compliance or I did this checklist today, okay, I did thistraining today. Okay, I did this today by only checking off your to do listand again not, as I mentioned earlier, not pausing, periodically lifting yourhead up. Why am I doing this and and reassessing and refocusing? I think ifyou put your head down and you only focus on compliance, sometimes you'remissing those opportunities for continuous improvement, you're missingthose opportunities to make a working environment may be a little bit betteror a little bit safer, you're missing that opportunity may be even for likean organon improvement or something I love those lines. So compliance isimportant. You know I'm the practice leader for our compliance team, I'm notselling your compliance is an important. I would just say you know just don'toverly focus on compliance. Remember why it is that we're doing those tasksand so that you can really exercise again. The plan do check act to drivecontinuous improvement m okay, and what would you say to those business ownersthat really don't want to spend money on safety want to? Try to you know it'sa you know. I tell people all the time. Safety is a business suspense. I knowit's a business owner. You want to s about your bottom line, but what do yousay to those I want to take short cuts and spend as less as possible if anyone shape yeah. You know, that's always a challenge right and it kind of goesback to what we were talking about earlier. It's just you know we're. Allpeople were all cut of the same cloth. We just need to have thoseconversations and figure out what's important to that person and bring itdown to that level. Yeah. What is the common denominator that we can thenbuild off of and if money, if money is the concern and- and you know, businessowners in this economy in this job market post pandemic, you know I havesympathy and empathy for the struggles. So, if money, if it's, if it all, comesdown to money, you know sharing with them what a workplace, injury cost. Youknow it is you you you've got not only the the cost associated with the actual,you know: Workplace Injury and the resulting workers. Cop, you know,depending on the nature of the industry, you know you could be shut down for acouple of days. While Osha is doing an investigation, you could have loss ofworkers, confidence and- and you can have you know just you know, folks-that that quit or kind of give up in their job and stop caring. You know ifyou've ever worked at it an organization, that's had a seriousincident. There's a morale drop that that happens after that. That greatlyaffects productivity and the bottom line. You know. So you know if money isthe common denominator, then then bring it down to that common denominator, andif it's other things that are the common denominator, then then thenleverage that the nice thing about safety is there's a bunch of differententry points. You know if it's money, you talk about what what a workplaceyou know injury or illness cost. You know. If it's compliance, then then youstart you. I don't want to be on the news. I don't want to violation. Idon't want to inspect on you find what that driving forces and you leveragethat that driving force and and some I...

...have some clients that are like. I justwant to be in compliance s all I care about you. Well, you know what at leastthey care about being and compliance that that's something I can work with.Absolutely speaking of workplace injuries, I'm pretty sure you'veexperienced a lot of different things in the safety. Can you give us a storyof you know? Maybe some tragic happening on the job site, just to kindof bring it all to my listeners, and I actually I ask every guess that I havegive me a story just to share what I am very fortunate that I do not have apersonal story along those lines, but I have worked at organizations that hadthose serious incidents and they are life changing you know. Iworked at one facility that had a fatality and and the fatality wasassociated with lockout Takou, or I should say, failure to lock out and thethe employee was pulled into a machine and you could talk to some of theemployees that were at that at that site. That were there the day ithappened, and there was a change that came over them as they talked about it,and one thing that I thought was you know really meaningful and packful isthat, on the andor anniversary of that fatality every day there was always asafety stand down. We didn't call him safety sand, downs back then, butthat's what they'd be called now we had a safety stand down where you know thepeople that were there that day that remembered shared their story. You knowand and talked about. You know what it you know how awful it was. You knowthey talked about their relationship with that individual that you know thatdied as a result of that that injury and it's it is life altering. You knowfor you to experience that. Thankfully I haven't experienced that personally,but I've seen it I've seen what what it's done. You know another experiencethat I had very young in my career, so you ask me: What did what did BabyJackie do? First few days on the job? First, I think it was my first month onthe job, one of our sister facilities, the there was an individual. He was amanager supervisor manager, roll was walked off the job after twenty fiveyears and he was walked off the job aftertwenty five years because he failed to exercise lock out side out, and thatwas a different companies calling different things: Safety, absolutecardinal rule- and you know for for me to be about a month into my career as awhole. You know my first real job. You know and see that see somebody that hadworked for the company for Twenty Twenty five years getting walked offthe job. No questions asked you failed to exercise lockout tag out, you knowgetting walked off the job that was also impactful yeah. Thankfully, thatwas impactful on more of a proactive measure as opposed to impactful,because of an actual you know, workplace incident or injury. You know,as we all know, with lockout Tago, it could have been a lot worse. Yeah.Absolutely absolutely. We've been here at my company, lock out tag out ARC.Flash we've been, you know going over that you know last couple ofmonths: real tough with a lot of our clients. So, but I appreciate thatJackie before we let you go, is there anything you want to leave with ourlisteners any messages? Anything you want to tell us before we go h that hasn't saved. I got lots of things, yeah I'll, keep it to the health andsafety message. You know I'll just say remember why we do it. We are all so busy, you know, and weare all I mean we are all worn out. We are all fatigued. We are also overeverything these last. What sixteen eighteen months have been hard oneverybody and and hard on the hard on everybody for different reasons, and soyou know when we're talking about health and safety. You know whetherit's protecting yourself and others from you know, exposure to the case,the nineteen virus or whether it's about working safely on the job aboutit's, whether you know hey, I'm getting on the roof this weekend to you knowclean the leaves out of my gutter. You know just always pause and reflect.What is it that I'm about to do you know? What do I need to do to be ableto do this safely and then do it safely, as opposed to just going through yourtask lists marking another thing off. Getting another thing done, so you canget on to the next thing, so you can get on to that. You know that next zoomcall or that next, whatever just pause, take a moment to do it right and thenyou have it folks, good hazard, recognition, training, I so fourteenthousand a one, forty five hundred one management systems, a good on boardingprogram for your company, just a few things, a Jackie Baxley. Thank youagain with H R P associates appreciate... Thank you for spending time withme. Hopefully we can do it again. Yes, thanks Mike Gavin, I've enjoyedI'm looking forward to our next conversation, I'll be I'll. Give you acall he like hey. I think this is a good one for you. May We can do thisagain. Absolutely folks, thank you for joining the Safety Management Showagain, I'm your host might being with Safety Services Company and until nexttime, stay safe in need of a blue print for workplacesafety and Compliance Safety Services Company is North America's leadingprovider of safety, training and compliant solutions. We supply customsafety, manuels and policies and on sight and online training solutionsthat will enhance the safety of your workplace and our compliance serviceswill save you time and resources guaranteeing peace of mind witheighteen years in the industry we have a proven track record of helpingcustomers achieved better safety outcomes by providing customizesolutions that fit the unique needs of each business to learn more had tosafety services. Companyon thanks for listening to the safetymanagement, show to hear more stories from safety leaders subscribe to theshow in your favorite podcast player. If you enjoyed the show, leave us arating until next time stay safe, T.

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