The Safety Management Show
The Safety Management Show

Episode 8 · 3 weeks ago

Understanding the Gray Areas of Safety w/ Josh Densberger


You can put out standard after standard and write every safety plan in the world, but the truth is that the real work of safety happens in the gray areas. In reality, working in the field is not as black and white as the standards make it seem.

In this episode, we speak with Josh Densberger, Corporate Safety and Training Manager for MSE Group , about how to sort out when to follow the rules to the letter and when it’s better to use common sense.

We discuss:

  • Lessons learned from working in fire services
  • Why it’s important to get out in the field
  • The goal of failing safely
  • Partnering with operations and HR

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

Hear more stories from safety professionals by subscribing in Apple Podcasts , Spotify, or vi siting our website.

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You're listening to the SafetyManagement Show where safety professionals share engaging storiesabout their time in the trenches and the hard earned lessons they've learnedalong the way, let's dig in hello and thanks for joining us on the SafetyManagement Show this week, I'm Jonathan Claybourn and I'm here with JoshDenberg Er, who is the director of safety at Ms Group Josh, has beenworking in safety for seventeen years. You started as a fire fighter for anine and a half years and then moved into a corporate safety director rolefor three years and then worked as a corporate safety and training managerand then, finally, as a director of training, me also teaches fire scienceas an adjunct, professor, at Seminal State College and currently at ValenciaCollege as a Master of Arts and fire emergency management from Oklahomastate and Ms Group, which we mentioned where Josh Works at, is purchasedrecently by Montrose Environmental and they provide qualified and competenteenvironmental engineering, health and safety services to the public andprivate entities nationwide. So you want to find out more about them.Definitely look up. Ms Group they're based out of Texas, but they also haveenginier Florida and all throughout the southwest and to United States. Asanything you want to add about Ms Group Josh. Now I pretty much cars it yeahwe've just been with mantras now for since January, first of this year, soyeah it's been six months. It's a pretty interesting acquisition andmerger process. So yeah it's we're growing. So it's a good place to bethat's definitely a good place to be especially right now yeah. We can't I,let's just start with a quick, get to know Josh. What kind of things doesJosh like to do on the weekend? Unwind? Well, I have three young children, so Idon't have a lot of free time anymore. My time is not my own. I've gotswimming and soccer and you know I spent a lot of time doing that, but Ihave pretty avid fitness guy, so I spent a lot of time. I have a home gym,so I spent a lot of time. If I get any free time I e in the in the home gymbut yeah. That's IT spending time with the kid good: that's definitely aquality and worth while endeavor. So let's talk about your career path herefor many, would you say that your path into the world of safety has beenpretty typical of most people who get into the safety industry or, as I havebeen a typical? I don't know, I mean I've come across a few people that havecome through. You know the fire service into the safety roll. I mean it's apretty natural transition, but yeah. I would think it's a it's a little, atypical just for the speed at which I've been able to you know get to theplaces that I have and that's more so that the stuff I chose to do in thefire service as well. I mean I was, I was more in the technical rescue stuffand then I transitioned into the the teaching of those technical skills, andso it lent itself pretty easily into the transition into the corporate worldand Ye. I didn't transition straight into a director, so I went to a company.You know I was working as a safety professional for them and there was achange made at the top and they asked me to take the role, so I was in theright place at the right time. So some of this was a little bit of luck to soI mean I don't know. If that's a typical or not I mean sometimes youjust got to be in the right place, it's very serendipitous yeah. Would youthink that your experience working in fire services has given you someinsight into safety that has benefited your career? Absolutely. I think thebig thing that you know working in an operational capacity does for you. Isit enlightens you to the fact that, yes, you can have standards and guidelinesand you can write every safety plan in the world, but real work is done kindof in the gray area, and sometimes you know the risks don't match the standard,and you have to really trust your people that are in the field and youhave to work with them to find the best solutions, and you know that's whatfire fighting is all about. I mean, obviously you know it's happening inreal time and so does work and you have to you know: you're, not you're, notrushing to save a life. You know during regular work or anything, but it isstill. You know there are still time constraints and and understanding thatyou working in the field is not as black and white as some of thestandards and codes. May you know try... make it seem. Yeah, there's,definitely no pasie button in real life. You can't stop and consult the manualif you're in the mix of things. So to that end, would you think that it wouldbe beneficial to like really have a solid grasp of what the intent and thepurpose of the manual is rather than the specific letter of what it's tryingto say? Absolutely, you know to me: That's how I I've tried to approach mycareers that what we're trying to do is prevent you, know, catastrophe andinjury and harm you know to humans and that's what that's what I spent my timetrying to do. You know there's you know we all have our pet peeves. When youlook at the standard and go d, You know what is this in here for, but you knowwe're looking really to you know, make sure that we're we're providing youknow a healthy and safe work. Environment and people can go home atnight and that's really what I try to focus on and that's what I think thestandard is really there for. The intent is to help you. You know achievethat. That goal that not to hinder you from doing work right o. So what kindof advice would you give somebody who's just starting out in the safety field,if they've decided that you know safety is something that I want to do for mycareer and it's maybe a passion that they have. What advice would you givethat person? I would say that one get out in the field as much as you canlearn from your operational people. Ask As many questions as you can withoutbeing overly annoying and listen. Listen because you know, there's atendency sometimes to go out and try. You know to bark orders or quotestandards to you, know very seasoned operators in the field, and you knowthey've been around the block. You know those guys got thirty years experienceor something- and you know you've got some person trying to tell them heythis. Is You should be doing this? One of those two worlds don't tend to meetin a happy place and so right ask a lot of questions. You know no one to bequiet and you know get out in the field. You know, don't don't make yourexperience about the guidance documents. Believe me you'll get plenty of timewith that anyway, because it's it's part of the job, but you know get outin the field as much as you can, because if you progress that gets lessand less as well, your opportunity to learn kind of diminishes. The hands onlearning kind of diminish is because you get other demands on your time toget more administrative tasks, yeah there's just more more that it becomespartum. I think a commonly held belief or something that's repeated. A lot andother safety professionals that I'm talking with is that there is almost adisparity between the you know what the chapter says from an academic. You knowtheoretical perspective versus what you have to do with the field and theydon't always align. Sometimes you know the chapter says these very specificthings, but then you get to the job site, and you know maybe things don'tline up the right way or things aren't quite cochers terms of what it does andyou have to do the best that you can do. That seems to be like an adopteduniversal truth that people in the safety industry sort of have is thatyeah there's the book, but we're not always going to be able to do it. Thatway. Is that something that you would agree with as well. Absolutely I meanif you, if you tried to take you, know any one of those manuals, one thousandnine hundred and ten twenty six. You know if you take the the M three eightyfive and you tried to do work specifically, you know only by thosethose rules and regulations, you one, you probably find that there are areasthat are contradictory. I mean it would be very difficult to try to figure out,like wit, what which one of these am I supposed to be following and yeah it'slike. We said before it. This is out there to try to get the best result andthat is to send people home. You know healthy, and you know there is a grayarea. You know there's a lot of people that may be listening to this. That go.I don't know there isn't, but you know the reality is that yeah there's youknow, there's the black and the white and then there's the the big area ofgrey in the middle that most of us live in and that's the truth, but it'sdefinitely a belief, that's held by others in the industry as well. Soyou're, not alone in that. Is there another belief within the safety industry that you passionatelydisagree with? I don't know if there's...

...anything that I overly disagree with, Imean one of my. I think what we talked about previously was a you know: I'mnot a big believer in in zero as a goal. I think zero is an ideal. You know, andit's great when you when you can achieve that. You know zero injuries,but you know when you're, when you're working especially like what we do,where we're digging digging up landfills or we're thinking ofhazardous chemicals and we're using you know a lot of hand, tools and we'reusing yellow iron and we're removing trucks all over the place. You knowit's, it's exceedingly difficult to be perfect, all the time, not that wedon't. You know we don't work and strive to do that, but that's notreally the goal. Our goal is to fail safely and you know sometimes thatmeans you may have some. You know some bumps and bruises, but we've avoidedthe catastrophe. You know we're still sending people home in one piece andthat's really what our goal is. That's what my goal is. You know I thejourneys to zero. Don't always, I think you can spin your wheels and then youcan get focused on that and generally, what I find is it tends to have peoplestart telling you lies, and that becomes the goal and they want toposition everything to reach right zero rather than that's practices right Y, aa, I think- and this is just me talking- I think that gets to a point wherethere gets to be diminishing return. You know you do your visk assessmentand you're like if we do these particular practices. You know it'llcost us x, number of dollars or x amount of time, but it will reducerisker injury by x number of percentage. But then, once you hit a certain point,it seems like you would be disproportionately spending more intimeand money to get a half a percent or quarter up percent in safety. Returninglike that, doesn't seem very practical from no. My Pres got right. I've. NeverI've never seen a study done that way in this in the safety profession, butI've seen it in so many other fields, and I think it probably is true.There's a there's got to be a point that yeah, your is diminishing, returnsyou're spending a ton of money to not really get any return on thatinvestment, and you know I'm not saying that we don't we don't try not to we'reout here taking unnecessary risks, but again we're also aware that you knowwhen you're using you know, drill rigs and things like that that it's heavymachinery and there's things that can happen. You know we're very aware ofthat right. It's not practical to tear the drill down every to every componentand inspect every single part and put it back together every day, every daybefore it starts like th, that's not a realistic or practical expectation.Right and yeah I mean I know, there's people that you know that believe thatcan be done and it could. But you know, there's a happy medium. You know I meanthe company is in business to be profitable. It's not in business towrite, you know, and that sometimes I think, is what what that idea of youknow. The goal of zero is kind of driven by is more of an idealistic view,and it they lose a little bit of the reality of what what you're reallytrying to do. In my opinion, you know that it's not realistic composition,that nothing is ever going to go wrong. You know you try to build systems inplace so that when they do that, you know again it's failing safely. That'sreally what what I try to do and spend my time doing is that I've come to therealization that none of us are going to be perfect, were we're all going tohave failures and things that we do so yeah. I definitely think that that'sprobably true for most people is like the the risk assessment is the drivingfactor for a starting place. Is there something that people are doing oftenthat you see that you wish they would stop doing when it comes to safety? Youknow. I still think that we have a heavy. You know we talk a good game inin our profession about not blaming the employee when things go wrong, but Ithink we still tend to do that. You know you know you still see a lot ofincident, reviews and stuff and then ultimately it comes down to you know,operator or by right the employees behavior. You know somehow you know didthis, you know and you're like well, you know, was there a manager on thesite, you know? Was There any oversight?...

You know when was the last time theproject manager was was at the facility or whatever you know, whatever jobyou're doing and usually those things. I try to ask all those questionsusually, and you know I get a lot of I've, especially in the new role. I'vegot a little bit of push back with. You know, hey, why are you you know? Howdid you arrive at this as the root cause? You know where's the theindividual, that's involved in this and you know a lot of times. It is theenvironment that we create for the employee that puts them at risking. Youknow I really try not to blame the employee, I mean it's, I think it'srare when it's just purely an employee, doing something out of the ordinary,and I know, you'll, hear all the the comments that will be posted to this.What about horse play? You know that happens. I guess it probably happenedmore frequently in my life in the fire service than it does in other jobs, butmost of the construction jobs I've been on. There are too many people out. Youknow screwing around in yeah, I feel like probably most people want to gohome at the end of the day and they understand the risks involved andthey're not really going to put themselves in situations that are goingto be dangerous or harmful, yeah, yeah, no wake up, say I'm going to go to workand get hurt today, yeah. I know I certainly don't I kindof as a follow up to s. This is there something that you wish people wouldstart doing when it comes to safety. Man Start Yeah, I mean that's a toughone. Yeah I mean I don't know. Basically, I think, maybe tying off ofyour previous comment, just dive more into actual root cause analysis.Instead of just yeah scape goading employ yeah. I mean, I think, that'sreally what I would hope to see more of is you know a true rout case analysis.You know an that's kind of what I was thinking that you know. We all have youknow constraints on our time and we try to button things up real, quick and todo a real. You know root cause analysis. You know you got to ask a lot ofquestions and it does take a little bit longer and it eats up some of your. Youknow the time that you might be dedicating to something else, becauseyou know every time you turn over a rock there's, usually one more and yougo oh well. Let me let me investigate that a little bit further too. What didthat yeah? And then you know you kind of get to I, Oh wow, you know hey,maybe we maybe this is where we've kind of got this this problem. You know Ijust had a person that was, you know. Stunk stunned by some bees- and youknow when I went through the whole thing you know a lot of it was- wasultimately coved related in that the company what we were doing work at theystopped having their pest control. People come on the site because they,you know they were trying to reduce the number of potential exposures coming ontheir site, and so you know here in Florida. If you go eighteen monthswithout your pest control, people on the site, you're going to have pestsyou're going to have problem in so the decrease of one risk increase the riskin another right- and you know- and so you know I got a few questions aboutlike you know, Oh shit, this person have been wearing PPE and again, I'mlike well now we're blaming the employee for literally opening acabinet, a normal thing to go. Get a meter reading doesn't require PPE, he'sliterally caring, a clipboard and writing down a number. That's on this.This meter right. He doesn't expect to open it and have it full of WASPS andhave them you know flying out into his face. You know S, I that's not a normal,it's a normal thing and it really is no again when we talk about the zero.What's the prevention measure for that other than having a pest controlprogram- and you know in that scenario that the employee hasn't really failedin any way I mean he, you know, that's not stung by cabinet wasps in a cabin,it's not going to be part of any risk assessment matrix anyway yeah you know,and so it's yeah it's one of those things that you go all right yeah. Soit was, you know, because that was like they were like she been wearing a hardhand on. No, this is a cabinet like you'd have at home. Do you wear a hardhat when you get you know to get a dish out, you know I well! No, I do also. Why would he? Why would he be doing that you so yeah?It's go. You know, that's probably the big one is that to really really pushthe root cause and really trying to look at. What's making your system weak?You know really try to find. You know, as they say, the hole in your shees.You know really try to figure out where that is because it takes time, and itnow takes effort. That's the big thing...

I mean you really have to put theeffort into do that yeah. I definitely think that it's worth the time when itcomes to things like that, is there anything that you or your company or one of yourcolleagues might be doing that you've noticed as a best practice that maybeis different than way other companies of doing it and yields better results.Yeah, I mean something I learned you know a while back in the in the fireservice from some really good. You know leaders is, and it's something I'vealways tried to do, and I've seen it in a few places, but I really try to buildtrust between myself and the operation people. I am not a cop, I don't everwant to be in that safety. COP position, I don't hide in bushes. I don't playthe Gotcha game, I don't go out to places and and do that I mean.Certainly, if I go to a place and something's you know, out of you knowout of sorts in and it should be correct and I have no problem. You knowsaying to someone like hey this: Isn't this isn't correct, but I've built up.You know a long history of trust with most of these folks that one they knowthey come to me with issues. You know, I'm not finding them. They'll come tome and say: Hey we're having this change in scope. How should we approachthis? Like you know? Our AHA is kind of built around this, but we've found youknow this problem to exist, so we're going to have to switch it switch it upand here's what we were thinking. I mean they've even gone that far to likewriting the new one and sending it to me and that that's when it you know, Irealized that it. You know, I learned from guys that don't trust that that'sthe biggest thing that you can do in this profession is build, build trustwith operations, people and you want them coming to you to ask you questions.You want to be a resource, you know, you don't want to be the safety guyyeah yeah, because it doesn't that's when people stop o telling me the truthand they stop working with you and you kind of get into that they're workingagainst you thing and you're you're chasing it then- and you know it's justlike in sport, the Yow sports analogy. You know you don't want to be chasingthe game because it you know it's not. You know it's just never successful. Soyou know that's that's probably the biggest thing is build. Trust just makesure that they know that you're on their team and not the other way aroundright yeah, I wy with them that against them right, yeah, I'm on the same team,you know and- and I like again- I've had wacky stuff come. You know whereyou'll have someone coming and say: Hey can I do this and I you know sure youcan is that the best way and then usually they're like well? No, probablynot we probably could do. We could babe do this, you know, and so you know theyknow the kind of person I am now. My approach is, and so I think that's goodtoo. Now it's really getting to know the people. You know, that's it. Theyhave to know who you are and, unfortunately you know you'll hearthese things build systems that aren't personality reliant, but I think Ithink that's that's true. Only to a certain extent yeah, you want to havestrong systems in place, but personalities are always going to playa big part in it. You know I mean I know I have a strong personality andthe people see me a certain way and if I were to leave this organization it itwould definitely change not that they couldn't get somebody that knew as muchas me or new more than me plenty of those people out there. You know, Iknow you know master of all things or anything, but I know where my strengthsare and I'm very good communicator and connector with people, and so that that'sprobably my biggest my biggest attribute. That certainly seems to bemy experience as well. Working in different industries is like there'salways those key people that kind of make things work, even if it's notnecessarily like driving the policy per se, but making sure that thosedifferent people or different resources within the agencies are connected toeach other and talking to each other and that the wheels are turning likethey're supposed to and like. You know that this person is in charge of theseresponsibilities or these assets of this person is a overseeing theseassets and they should have all should be talking to this other third personand you're just fostering those relationships. I think that goes a longway and I had a facilitating how smoothly processes are deployed.Whatever the agency or process may be absolutely yeah, I mean I, I know I'mseeing that way, because I have a lot of people who I I want again, there'sthere's some downfalls too to having... know that person. I am not an HRprofessional and I don't pretend to be one. You know I don't. I don't want toplay one on TV, but I do have people who come to me and bring things to mewhere I'm like you know really this. This is this is not my. You really needto take this her like. I cannot help you with that, and I don't tell me anymore stop talking. I don't want it a one possible deniability a because I do have a I mean you have ahigh role management role in the company, and so there are certainobligations when people bring things to you that right, yeah, you know and soyeah, but you know that's probably the only drawback that I see to you know really making those humanconnections with the teams that are working in the field is that sometimesyou learn too much right. Yeah I've definitely been inthose situations. In my experience in my career, where I you know, you'rewalking that fine line between trust and obligation, so I've- you know maybementioned to an h person once or twice have you reached out to you- know soand so and had a conversation with them, because if you have it, you might wantto do that. Yeah and I mean- and that's that's another key thing that I do aswell like. I create a partnership with my HR counterpart, like you know, rightnow, I'm at a divisional level in the new company, and so I have alreadybuilt that bridge with a divisional on person, and you know we communicate.You know frequently. They were surprised when I said Hey, we shouldhave a month to call you know to make sure that if there's things I comeacross in my world that really belong in your basket and vice versa. We youknow, we have this open dialogue and that you know we're not here. You knowthey need that same help to a crossing that bridge of not being you know, cops.You know, because that happens to them a lot too and really they're trying tocreate the same goal: The trying to chieve the same goal and environmentthat I am you know, they're trying to you know the total human health. Youknow the wellness of the whole employee there, the other they're, the otherpiece of that and so yeah. That's a big thing that you want to do when you'reworking in this capacity is to have that strong relationship. You know withyour HR counterpart and with that team and making sure that you know you guyshave a united front you're, not you know, I'm not out doing one thing andcausing them grief, because I'm doing so counterproductive to what they'retrying to achieve right is there. We spend a lot of time talking aboutsuccesses and and best practices, let's kind of dive into the antithesis ofthat for a moment. Is there an experience that you've witnessed? Thatwas a failure that you think other people might be headed for it, and ifso, what is that yeah? I mean I've obviously been a part of things thathave that have failed. I mean more on the test of I mean I've been you know,I've been in an organization, that's you know, that's had an employeefatality before and you know I would say that anyone, that's not reallylooking at their their systems, especially their their managementsystems. You know where they're expecting you know, we train theemployees and they know all and they're going to go out and perform to a t. Youknow everything that we've told them. Those folks are headed for catastrophe,because really you know what we found when we went through the whole. Youknow the the one that particular incident, I'm thinking of when wereally broke it down and we went through the whole thing it was. Hisemployee had been operating and doing pretty high skilled. You knowmaintenance work on some vehicles for a number of weeks with really nointeraction with his supervisors at all, and you know. Ultimately, there was,you know, an error made in judgment on you now some safety systems that theyshould have been using, but I think if, if those managers were honest withthemselves and they had been checking in with this person, those kinds ofdeficiencies they get caught, you know you're outthere, you're interacting with your people- and you know again, the realsafety manager at any job is whoever that operational supervisor is. I can'tbe on every job. I can't be at every task level. You know what, whetheryou're working in a manufacturing plan or if you're working you know out in abig excavation or construction side or...

...whatever the people that are in that,are actually supervising the task level. Employees that are, you know, executingthe work they're, the true safety manager and they're, the ones thatreally have to be conscious of what's going on and if you're, not, if youdon't have that happening in your organization, if your managers are atthe desk, you know type it on a computer. Most of the time, you've gota lot of risk that you don't know about that. That's happening that, that'sthat's what I that's that's what I learned from that failure. You know-and I take that with me all the time and I try to explain that whenever wehave new managers, I sit down and I go through that with them what it feltlike to to go and speak with the family. You know attend this. This young man'sfuneral, you know see his family as children. There I mean it was a yeah.It was a life changing experience for me for sure yeah. I can imagine- and Ithink from my experience as well, both being an employee and as a supervisor.I know that when the supervisors are more readily available, it's definitelyeasier to ask them questions about stuff that, maybe I don't know ahundred percent on. I can stop and ask them a question a lot easier ratherthan saying well they're not available. They may or may not answer their phone.They might be in a meeting I'll, just guess and wing it and I'll circle backwith them later right, but that's where I think some of those kind of thingscome into play. Yeah, absolutely yeah, so is there a particular tool or aresource that you have that's like a favorite go to for you that you thinkmaybe other people might not be using well or might not be using towardsfullest from. I think most of us have a lot of the same access to things. Imean we use a an online system for injury tracking, and you know all ofthat that kind of stuff, but I don't know one of the things. I know thatthat that I try to push just my real basic thing that I know that's veryhelpful, especially here in Florida, because I used the Nyasa heat indextool on the APP a lot and I try to get a spit, if not all, of our employees. Idefinitely get all of my field supervisors and I that's been afavorite of mine because now I'll get a lot of I mean I opened up a bag ofworms, but I do get a lot of emails of like hey this thing's in the yellow.Should I be doing this or hey this thing says it's going to be a hundredand six of the heat index. I shouldn't be working and you know, but it it does.That's one that I like a lot because it does keep them thinking about. You knowif nothing else, it sets up in their their mind every morning that hey, youknow, I do have an obligation to take care of these people that that areworking for me out here as far as any other really large systems or stuff.You know, I think, we're using the same things that most people are. You knowwe have computer based incident, you know tracking and we've got automatedinsurance filing and all of that stuff I don't know how much they make my joba little bit easier, but I don't know how much they're yeah I definitely haveseen benefits of having mobile APPS and mobile access and things of that nature.You know having that ready access right, your finger tips, so if you have like aa Temanu that they can also load on their phone and the employes canreference it in the field, those kinds of things have definitely been helpfulfrom forkers, and we do that as well. We have a way that we can put our likethe safety plan for a job. You know on a on a nap and they can look at it onthe phone and stuff, but yeah yeah, the yeah. Those are the things I think thatwe we're pretty technology forward company. So it's kind of hard. We do.We do so much with it that I forget that, maybe not everybody is doing whatwe're doing it yeah. When one person I was talking to recently, they juststopped using paper forms in the field and switch to a mobile reporting APP.So it's definitely not something that everybody is yeah. We don't have toomuch paper anymore yeah, so I mean I guess, I'm spoiled it's been yeah, it'sbeen a while, since we've done anything like that, I mean I sometimes Ye. Iwonder like where are those things and I go yeah they're all already they'realready I'm already on the in my in my graphs and charts. I don't have to doanything. You know, there's more paper work for me. Like I'm a big data person,I love having access to the computerized reporting, because thenyou can, you can run all the analytics.

You can deep dive into the informationyou can start looking at trendils is you can see the graphs visually in andthere's so much different ways that you can break down the data and it's almostin real time. I mean as fast as they upload their incident report orwhatever they're doing. You can look at that data and start to break it downand compare it to other examples, and you just have a lot more informationavailable. Yeah. Absolutely I mean t at that's the advantage. Is You want to beable to use your data and when you can visualize it too, it really helps youagain. That's another tool. I use to gain that that trust with theespecially that management piece like when you can go out and you knowphysically show them like with the you know, really: Cool, graphics and stufflike Hey. This is what's happening. These are the dollar trends we'relosing and you you know you put it in a way that that's memorable or that'suseful for them, and you know, then you know, I think it tends to stay withthem and it's the same thing when you're, when you're talking to the csweet or something you know, you want to make sure that you're talking theright language, like you better, be equating this to dollars and cents whenyou're talking to that room, you know, and you need to have those tools thatcan help you translate. You know what you're seeing in the field to dollaramounts, because, let's be honest, that's what they're that you know.That's what their focus is. You know, especially when you have a we're apublicly traded company now, so we've got shareholders, so you better be ableto explain to them through that language. What it is that you're doingand why it's beneficial so yeah the technology tools are there. There musthave at this point, yeah Anuti, you get that view a data still on paper. It'stoo do you would have to pay somebody to manually key it into a program andcane, so it so much there's only so much excel can do for you right. I meanit's right name is you know some of the other things that are out there nowthat you know really almost automate like our animate is the word I'mlooking for animate your data so that it you know you know you is come forlife and Kayah, and I've certainly noticed in things like that that thereare trends that maybe get missed. If you're trying to do it, the old schoolway. Well, yeah and that's a thing, the more ways you can look at the data,especially when you have a system that allows you to do that. That's one ofthe things like ours has a number of things. When I first got into it, Iwasn't familiar with what they were like. Why do I want to look at it thisway, but I ran those reports and started to figure out like Oh wow. Thisis an interesting way to look at this pie and it is telling me something kindof interesting. You know, and you know you find something new to get yourselfinto and you know a new way to present information, but also, sometimes youfind actual problems, or you know, deficiencies in your system that youyou were unaware of. That's always a good day. I mean, even though it's aproblem, it's still a good day, because now that's something that actionablethat you can execute. So I can fix this and I know where to begin right, yeahand that's yeah. Those are always good days when you, when you have a newbeginning- and you say wow, we have a new way to you know to try to help andachieve our ideal. Try to hit that that that ideal, zero, but that's what thosesystems offer you yeah for sure is there I mean we were just talking about.You were kind of surprised by looking at the data another way, but is thereanything else that your company has done recently or maybe you haveimplemented as a process that you were surprised by the results of yeah, I'min a unique situation, because my legacy company, Ms Group, we hadcertain processes and the new company has a completely different platform.We're going from you know like a Microsoft base thing to a Google basething, and so I'm big learning curve trying to figure outlike A. I know this. They both probably do the same things, but I got to figureout how to make the other one do it. But Yeah I mean you know, I don't know we were pretty advanced for a smallcompany. So there's a lot of things that that we had that they're asking usto scale across a much larger company. So I'm attempting to do something. I'venever done before. You know, take something, that's kind of small andscale and move it into a new system and put it across two sand people insteadof a hundred. So you know obviously my our glitches that we might have hadthat we weren't seeing they're probably going to come. You know back brightshining in our faces here shortly because you know with that many moreusers yeah the chance of somebody...

...finding the break is much greater, soyeah we're anticipating that. But no, I haven't seen too many things like thatdifferences. I guess is what you ask me right. Yeah yeah and I know frompersonal experience like those learning curves can be brutal. I that's one ofmy things. I hate the most, if there's so much of a learning care, but I tendto kind of put it off and I'm like now and that I'll do this later. Ah, thereis a difference between. I mean anyone, that's outlook based using my emailthrough outlook you get used to it. There's rules you can make it do awhole bunch of stuff and I've been using it for a long time, and you knowthe new company is got got a Google based system and I know it does all thesame things but they've purposely, I guess, moved all the buttons todifferent parts of the screen so or the lab. Something different is at my time,schnake like how do I start an email, it took me a while to figure out that'swhat pencil was on. Google versus the yeah yeah t is definitely a learningCARF yeah. Is there something that your team has completed recently or thatthey've achieved that you've been really proud of within your agency yeah,I mean I'm always proud of. You know my field teams, but actually it's funny? US that. Yesterday we just had an incident and an excavation that we, youknow we had done everything right. You know. Theoretically, you know we hadcalled before we. You know we're digging. We done the utility surveys, the groundsurveys. We had the radar we've done all these things. We use the historicaldocuments nothing's buried here. We're going to get some, you know, go pro,you know ground samples and we hit and ununited you know natural gas line andthe team executed the Emergency Management Plan. You know far betterthan I would ever dream that you know like for me as an emergency operator inthe path you know. I know what smooth is, and I also know like. Oh man thatcould have been a lot better. You know it was. It was really one of thosemoments where you go right. This isn't great. We hit a gas line and things,but it was notified all these people. The whole situation was mitigatedwithin forty five minutes, and you know it turned out that we actuallyidentified something for the client that they were unaware of. They had noidea that a private line had been cut through their property. They didn'teven know. I was there and we were we obliged them by finding it for them,probably in the West Way at o. good news well discover this. What some goodnews and some bad news for it, but now that the teams have learned- and youknow and that they have that level of expertise was that was a big deal. You know that wasright, bonares, you know still still doing the paperwork and stuff on that,so it was yeah. That was a big deal, though, that we actually got some bigcomments back from the client already that they said you know hey. We werereally impressed that these guys knew what to do, and you know they didn'tmake it worse. You know they Rien made the situation better and they, you know,prevented any further damage or any any injury from occurring, and so it wasyeah. It was a good moment yeah. I definitely would chuck that up as a winin my book as well. Let me any time that they can just respond to anemergency on the fly and it's smooth and it's sufficient that they don'tmake it waste. That's definitely a good day yeah. It was good. So earlier wewere talking about the risk factor analysis, a trying to like thehypothetical zero and the return diminishing returns that people couldget involved with. How much do you think it plays a role in safety likethe attention to detail that maybe could be overlooked sometimes by peoplespeeding things through the process, just for the sake of getting it doneversus, going slow and methodically and like checking every box on a check listor making sure that every stuff in the process is completed or that you'reworking with the right version of this product as opposed to a differentversion? Do you think that those kinds of mistakes they happen frequently andbe you know, could have disastrous outcomes? What is its relative to thework that you're doing? But again? Yes, I mean, if you you know, if you're notin control of you, know the process...

...whatever it may be. You know. Obviouslyyou have. You have your whole separate field of process safety management. Youknow where you're working in laboratories with hazardous chemicalsor whatever, and that's much more. You know it's easier in that round to beblack and white and say you know we're going to do a to be and see doesn'thappen until you know B is done and we don't you don't jump steps and then,when you it's very easy there to see when steps are jumped, where the errorshappen and you go yeah, you can't do that. That's going to react every timethat same way, because the physical properties of these chemicals arealways going to do that. Those are hard, hard facts and it becomes a little bitdifferent when I think the principle holds true, but it's a little bitdifferent difficult to identify like let's say you're. We pull a lot oftanks, a lot of underground storage tanks as a company. You know we do alot of that type of mediation work and it there's only so many ways you bury atank right, we've seen right. You know we've gotten into some weird ones andeverything, but for the most part they're generally the same and that'sthe kind of work you're right that can lend itself to repetition. We know what it is, we'regoing to do it the same way, and you know what now we can speed it up. Youknow last time we did it in you know eight hours, let's do it in six, oh nowthat one can try to do ting for and I yes, I agree with you that that iswhere again, without a strong management group to say: Hey, that's,that's not our mission. Our mission is to get the tank out of the ground. Youknow we bid this at a certain time for a reason, and let's take the time tomake sure you know that that we don't cause ourselves some. You know unduecatastrophe. That was, you know, just eats a profit. You know I mean you know,that's yeah. I definitely think that's true yeah t that I get those thosecompeting interests of time and I and savings and it kind of a mess with everything yeah. It doesand you and you always have to go back to that yeah. You can make more profitif you finish early, but if you've been the project right, the Prophet wasalready bit into it with the time that you built to do the work like right.Sometimes it's in taking in Saro Yeah. You know with the Latigos society thatwe live in, I think, taking a short cut like that unnecessarily. You know now,you're paying you know, employed compensation or damages or somethingelse so that definitely eats into that profit of the long run so yeah you canruin a projects, profit really quick yeah. So it's it's all about findingthat balance for sure all right, Josh. Well, I want to be mindful of your time,so thank you for joining us this week, been listening to the Safety ManagementShow brought to you by Safety Services Company. It's been a pleasure havingyou josh thanks. Very much hey thanks for having me in need of a blue print for workplacesafety and Compliance Safety Services Company is North America's leadingprovider of safety, training and compliant solutions. We supply customsafety, amies and policies and on sight and online training solutions that willenhance the safety of your workplace and our compliance services will saveyou time and resources guaranteeing peace of mind with eighteen years inthe industry we have a proven track record of helping customers achievedbetter safety outcomes by providing customize solutions that fit the uniqueneeds of each business to learn more had to safety services. Companyon thanks for listening to the safetymanagement, show to hear more stories from safety leaders subscribe to theshow in your favorite podcast player. If you enjoyed the show, leave us arating until next time stay safe, T.

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