The Safety Management Show
The Safety Management Show

Episode 8 · 1 year ago

Understanding the Gray Areas of Safety w/ Josh Densberger


You can put out standard after standard and write every safety plan in the world, but the truth is that the real work of safety happens in the gray areas. In reality, working in the field is not as black and white as the standards make it seem.

In this episode, we speak with Josh Densberger, Corporate Safety and Training Manager for MSE Group , about how to sort out when to follow the rules to the letter and when it’s better to use common sense.

We discuss:

  • Lessons learned from working in fire services
  • Why it’s important to get out in the field
  • The goal of failing safely
  • Partnering with operations and HR

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You're listening to the Safety Management Show, where safety professional share engaging stories about their time in the trenches and the hard earned lessons they've learned along the way. Let's dig in blow and thanks for joining us on the safety management show this week. Jonathan Claiborne and I'm here with Josh Denzburger, who's the director of safety at Ms Group. Josh has been working in safety for seventeen years. You started as a firefighter for nine and a half years and then moved into a corporate safety director role for three years, then worked as a corporate safety and training manager and then finally as a director of training. We also teaches fire science as an adjunct professor at someone I'll state college and currently at Valencia College as a Master of Arts and fire and emergency management from Oklahoma state. And MSC group, which we mentioned where Josh Works at, is purchased recently by Montrose Environmental and they provide qualified and competent environmental engineering, health and safety services to the public and private entities nationwide. So you want to find out more about them, definitely look up MSC group. They're based out of Texas, but they also have engineering plants in Florida and all throughout the southwest and to United States. As anything you want to add about MSC group? Josh? No, pretty much car is it? Yeah, we we've just been with Montrose now for since January first of this year, so he has been six months. It's a pretty interesting acquisition and merger process. So yes, we're growing. So it's a good place to be. That's definitely a good place to be, especially right now. Yeah, we can't worn. Let's just start with a quick get to know Josh. What kind of things does Josh like to do on the weekend unwind? Well, I have three young children, so I don't have a lot of free time anymore. My time is not my own. I've got swimming and soccer and you know I spend a lot of time doing that. But I have pretty avid fitness guy, so I spent a lot of time. I have a home gym, so I spent a lot of time, if I get any free time in the in the in the home gym. But yeah, that's it. Spend a time with the kid. Good. That's definitely a quality and worth while endeavor. So let's talk about your career path here. For many would you say that your path into the world of safety has been pretty typical of most people who get into the safety industry. Or as it been a typical I don't know. I mean I've come across a few people that have come through, you know, the fire service into the safety world. I mean it's a pretty natural transition. But yeah, I would think it's. Yeah, it's a little late typical just for the speed at which I've been able to get to the places that I have. And that's more so that the stuff I chose to do in the fire service as well. I mean I was I was more in the technical rescue stuff and then I transitioned into the teaching of those technical skills and so it lent itself pretty easily into the transition into the corporate world. And I didn't transition straight into a director's roll. I went to a company, you know, was working as a safety professional for them and there was a change made at the top and they asked me to take the role. So I was in the right place at the right time. So some of those a little bit of luck to so I mean I don't know if that's a typical color not. I mean sometimes you just got to be in the right place. It's very serendipitous. Yeah, would you think that your experience working and fire services as giving you some insight into safety that has benefited your career? Absolutely. I think the big thing that, you know, working in an operational capacity does for you is it enlightens you to the fact that, yes, you can have standards and guidelines and you can write every safety plan in the world, but real work is done kind of in the gray area and sometimes, you know, the risks don't match the the standard and you have to really trust your people that are in the field and you have to work with them to find the best solutions. And you know that's what firefighting is all about. I mean, obviously you know it's happening in real time and so does work and you have to you know you're not you're not rushing to save a life, you know, during regular work or anything, but it is still you know, there are still time constraints in and understanding that working in the field is not as black and white as some of the standards and codes may try to make it seem. Yet...

...there's definitely no pause button in real life. You can't stop and consult the manual if you're in the mix of things. So, to that end, would you think that it would be beneficial to like really have a solid grasp of what but the intent in the purpose of the manual is, rather than the specific letter of what it's trying to say? Absolutely, you know. To me that's how I've tried to approach my career, is that what we're trying to do is prevent, you know, catastrophe and and injury and harm, you know, to humans, and that's what that's what I spend my time trying to do. You know, there's you know, we all have our pet peeves when you look at the standard and go out, you know, what is this in here for? But, you know, we're looking really to, you know, make sure that we're we're providing, you know, a healthy and safe work environment and people can go home at night. And that's really what I try to focus on and that's what I think the standard is really there for. The intent is to help you, you know, achieve that. That goal, not not to hinder you from doing work. Right. So, what kind of advice would you give somebody who's just starting out in the safety field if they've decided that, you know, safety is something that I want to do for my career and it's maybe a passion that they have. What advice would you give that person? I would say that one, get out in the field as much as you can learn from your operational people, ask as many questions as you can without being overly annoying, and listen. Listen, because you know there's a tendency sometimes to go out and try, you know, to bark orders or quote standards to you know, very seasoned operators in the field and you know they've been around the block. You know, guys got thirty years experience or something, and you know you've got some person trying to tell them, hey, this is you should be doing this one. Those two worlds don't tend to meet in a happy place, and so, right ask a lot of questions. You know, no one to be quiet and you know, get out in the field. You know, don't don't make your experience about the guidance documents. Believe me, you'll get plenty of time with that anyway, because it's it's part of the job. But you know, get out in the field as much as you can because as you progress that gets less and less, as well your opportunity to learn kind of diminishes. The hands on learning kind of diminishes because you get other demands on your time. Give more administrative tasks. Yeah, it was just more more that it becomes part of your jump. I think a commonly held believe or something that's repeated a lot and other safety professionals that I'm talking with is there's almost a disparity between the you know, what the chapter says from academic, you know, theoretical perspective, versus what you have to do in the field, and they don't always aligned. Sometimes, you know, the chapter says these very specific things, but then you get to the job site and you know, maybe things don't line up the right way or things aren't quite kosher's terms of what it does and you have to do the best that you can do. That seems to be like a an adopted universal truth that people in the safety industry sort of have is that, yeah, there's the book, but it we're not always going to be able to do it that way. Is that something that you would agree with this? Well, absolutely, I mean, if you if you tried to take, you know, any one of those manuals, the one thousand nine hundred and ten the twenty six. You know, if you take the EM three hundred and eighty five and you tried to do work specifically, you know, only by those those rules and relations you one, you'd probably find that there are areas that are contradictory and it would be very difficult to try to figure out, like wait, which one of these am I supposed to be following? And Yeah, it's like we said before, it this is out there to try to get the best result and that is to send people home, you know, healthy and you know there is a gray area. You know, there's a lot of people that may be listening to this ago. I'll know there isn't, but you know, the reality is that, yeah, there's you know, there's the black in the white and then there's the big area of gray in the middle that most of us live in, and that's the truth. But it's definitely a belief that's held by others in the industry as a while. So you're not alone in that. Is there another belief within the safety industry that you passionately disagree with? I don't know if there's...

...anything that I overly disagree with. I mean one of my you know, I think what we talked about previously was that. You know, I'm not a big believer in in zero as a goal. I think zero is an ideal, you know, and and it's great when you when you can achieve that, you know, zero injuries, but you know when you're when you're working, especially like what we do, where we're digging, digging up landfills or we're digging up hazardous chemicals and we're using, you know, a lot of hand tools and we're using yellow iron and we're we're moving trucks all over the place. You know, it's it's exceedingly difficult to be perfect all the time. Not that we don't, you know, we don't work and strive to do that, but that's not really the goal. Our goal is to fail safely and you know, sometimes that means you may have some some bumps and bruises, but we've avoided the cat astrophe. You know, we're still sending people home in one piece, and that's really what our goal is. That's what my goal is. You know, I the journeys to zero don't always I think you can spin your wheels and then you can get focused on that and generally what I find is it it tends to have people start telling you lies and that becomes the goal and they want to position everything to reach right zero rather than best practices. Right. Yeah, and I think in this is just me talking, I think there gets to a point where there gets to be diminishing return you know, you do your risk assessment and you're like, if we do these particular practices, you know it'll cost us x number of dollars or x amount of time, but it will reduce risker injury by ex umber percentage. But then once you hit a certain point, it seems like you would be disproportionately spending more in time and money to get a half a percent or right order of a percent in safety. Returning like that doesn't seem very practical. From knowing my prist ride, I've never I've never seen a study down that way in this in the safety profession, but I've seen it in so many other fields and I think it probably is true. There's a there's got to be a point that yeah, you're diminishing returns, you're spending a ton of money to not really get any return on that investment. And you know, I'm not saying that we don't. We don't try not to. We're out here and taking unnecessary risks. But again, we're also aware that, you know, when you're using, you know, drill rigs and and things like that, that it's heavy machinery and there's things that can happen. You know, you were very aware of that. Right in. It's not practical to tear the drill down every to every component and inspect every single part and put it back together every day, every day before it start like that. That's not a realistic or practical expectation, right and yeah, I mean I know there's people that you know that believe that can be done, and it could, but you know, there's a happy medium, you know. I mean the company is in business to be profitable. It's not in business to write, you know, and that sometimes, I think, is what what that idea of, you know, the goal of zero is kind of driven by is more of an idealistic view, and it they lose a little bit of the reality of what what you're really trying to do. In my opinion, you know that it's not realistic proposition that nothing is ever going to go wrong. You know, you try to build systems in place so that when they do that you know, again, it's failing safely. That's really what what I try to do and spend my time doing is that I've come to the realization that none of us are going to be perfect were we're all going to have failures and things that we do also. Yeah, and I definitely think that that's probably true for most people. Is like they the risk assessment is the driving factor for a starting place. Is there something that people are doing often that you see that you wish they would stop doing when it comes to safety? You know, I still think that we have a heavy you know, we talk a good game in our in our profession about not blaming the employee when things go wrong, but I think we still tend to do that, you know. You know, you still see a lot of incident reviews and stuff, and then ultimately it comes down to, you know, operator error, right right, the employees behavior, you know, somehow, you know did this, you know, and you're like, well, you know, was there a manager on the site? You know, was there any oversight? You know, when was the last time...

...the project manager was was at the facility or whatever, you know, whatever job you're doing, and usually those things I try to ask all those questions usually, and I get a lot of I've, especially in the new role, I've gotten a little bit of pushback with you know, hey, why are you and know what you know? How did you arrive at disk as the root cause? You know, where's the individual that's involved in this? And you know a lot of times it is the environment that we create for the employee that puts them in at risk. And you know, I really try not to blame the employee. I mean it's I think it's rare when it's just purely an employee doing something out of the ordinary. And I know you'll hear all the comments that will be posted this out. What about horseplay? You know, that happens. I guess it probably happened more frequently in my life in the fire service than it does and other jobs. But most of the construction jobs I've been on there are too many people out, you know, screwing around. And Yeah, I feel like probably most people want to go home at the end of the day and they understand the risks involved and they're not really going to put themselves in a situations that are going to be dangerous or harmful. Yeah, yeah, and no, wake up, say I'm going to go to work and get her today? Yeah, I know, I certainly don't. I kind of as a follow up to this, is there something that you wish people would start doing when it comes to safety? Hmm Man Start. Yeah, I mean that's a tough one. Yeah, I mean I don't know. Basically, I think maybe, tying off of your previous comment, just dive more into actual root cause analysis instead of just, yeah, scapegoating and employee yeah, I mean I think that's really what I would hope to see more of, is, you know, a true root cause analysis. You know that that's kind of what I was thinking that. You know, we all have, you know, constraints on our time and we try to button things up real quick and to do a real you know root cause analysis. You know, you got to ask a lot of questions and it does take a little bit longer and it eats up some of your, you know, the time that you might be dedicating to something else, because you know, every time you turn over a rock there's usually one more and you go, oh well, let me let me investigate that a little bit further to why did that? Yeah, and then you know, you kind of get to like, Oh wow, you know, hey, maybe we maybe this is where we've kind of got this this problem. You know, I just had a person that was the stuck, stunng by some bees and you know, when I went through the whole thing, you know, a lot of it was was ultimately covid related and that the company W we were doing work at, they stopped having their pest control people come on the site because they, you know, they were trying to reduce the number of potential exposures coming on their site. And so you know here in Florida, if you go eighteen months without your pest control people on the site, you're going to have pests, you're going to have problems right into the decrease of one risk increase the risk in another, right and you know. And so, you know, I got a few questions about like, you know, oh, should this person have been wearing PPE? And again I'm like, well, now we're blaming the employee for literally opening a cabinet. A normal thing to go get a meter reading doesn't require PPE. He's literally carrying a clipboard and write down a number that's on this this meter, right, he doesn't expect to open it and have it full of WASPS and have them, you know, flying out into his face. You know, that's not a normal it's not a normal thing and there really is no again, when we talk about the zero what what's to prevention measure for that other than having a pest control program and you know in that scenario that the employee hasn't really failed in any way. I mean he, you know, that's not stung by cabinet or WASPS in a cabinet. It's not going to be part of any risk assessment matrix anywhere. Yeah, you know, and so it's yeah, it's one of those things that you go, you know, all right. Yeah, so it was, you know, because I was like, they were like she even wearing a hard hat. Him. No, this is a cabinet like you'd have at home. You were a hard hat when you get, you know, to get a dish out, you know, will know, yeah, I do all this. Why would he? So, yeah, it's good. You know, that's probably the big one. Is it a really really pushed the root cause and really try to look at what's making your system weak, you know, really try to find, you know, as they say, the hole in your shees. You know, really try to figure out where that is, because it takes time and it, you know, takes effort. That's the big thing. I mean,... really have to put the effort into do that. Yeah, I definitely think that it's worth the time when it comes to things like that. Is Is there anything that you or your company or any of your colleagues might be doing that you've noticed as a best practice that maybe it's different than wait other companies of doing it and yields better results? Yeah, I mean, something I learned, you know, while back in the in the fire service, from some really good, you know leaders, is and it's something I've always tried to do and I've seen it in a few places. But I really try to build trust between myself and the operation people. I am not a cop. I don't ever want to be in that safety cop position. I don't hide in Bushes, I don't play the Gotcha game, I don't go out to places and do that. I mean certainly, if I go to a place in something's, you know, out of you know, out of sorts and it should be corrected, I have no problem, you know, saying to someone like Hey, this isn't this isn't correct, but I've built up, you know, along history of trust with most of these folks. That one. They know, they come to me with issues. You know I'm not finding them. They'll come to me and say, Hey, we're having this change in scope. How should we approach this? Like, you know, our Aha is kind of built around this, but we've found, you know, this problem to exist, so we're going to have to switch it, switch it up. And here's what we were thinking. I mean they've even gone that far to like writing the new one and sending it to me, and that that's when it you know, I realized that it you know, I learned from guys that built trust that that's the biggest thing that you can do in this profession is build build trust with operations people and you want them coming to you to ask you questions. You want to be a resource, you know, you don't want to be the safety that guy. Yeah, yeah, because it doesn't that's when people stop telling you the truth and they stopped working with you and you kind of get into that they're working against you thing and you're you're chasing it then, and you know it's just I can sport, the old sports analogy. You know, you don't want to be chasing the game because it no, it's not. You know, it's just never successful. So, you know, that's that's probably the biggest thing is build trust. Just make sure that they know that you're on their team and not the other way around. Right, yeah, I with them, that against them. Right, yeah, I'm on the same team, you know, and and I like again, I've had whacky stuff come you know, where you'll have someone come in and say, Hey, can I do this? And I you know, sure you can. Is that the best way? And then usually they're like well, no, probably not, we probably could do we could probably do this, you know. And so, you know, they know the kind of person that I am now, my approach is, and so I think that's good too. It's really getting to know the people, you know, it's that's it. They have to know who you are. And unfortunately, you know, you'll hear these things build systems that aren't personality reliant, but I think, I think that's that's true only to a certain extent. Yeah, you want to have strong systems in place, but personalities are always going to play a big part in it, you know. I mean, I know I have a strong personality and the people see me a certain way and if I were to leave this organization, it would it would definitely change. Not that they couldn't get somebody that knew as much as me or new more than me. Plenty of those people out there, you know. I know, you know master of all things or anything, but I know where my strengths are and I'm very good communicator and connector with people, and so that that's probably my biggest my biggest attribute. That's sainly seems to be my experience as well. Working in different industries, is like there's always those key people that kind of make things work, even if it's not necessarily like driving the policy per se, but making sure that those different people or different resources within the agencies are connected to each other and talking to each other and that the wheels are turning like they're supposed to, and like you know that this person is in charge of these responsibilities or these assets and this person is of overseeing these assets and they should have all should be talking to this other third person and you're just fostering those relationships that I think that goes a long way and I kind of facilitating how smoothly processes are deployed, whatever the agency or process may be. Absolutely, yeah, I mean I I know I'm seeing that way because I have a lot of people whoo I want again, there's there's some downfalls to to having,... know that that person. I am not an HR professional and I don't pretend to be one. You know, I don't. I don't want to play one on TV, but I do have people who come to me and bring things to me where I'm like, you know, really, this, this is this is not what you really need to take this agr like, I cannot help you with that and I don't tell me anymore. Stop talking. I don't want to. I don't want to be that possible deniability, but I don't want anymore those. Yeah, because I do have, I mean I do have a high roll management, a role in the company, and so there are certain obligations when people bring things to you. That right, yeah, you know. And so, yeah, but you know, that's probably the only drawback that I see to you know, really making those human connections with the teams that are working in the field is that sometimes you learn too much. Right, yeah, I've definitely been in those situations and my experience and my career where, you know, you're walking that fine line between trust and obligation, and so I've, you know, may be mentioned to an HR person once or twice. Have you reached out to, you know, so and so and had a conversation with them? Because if you have it, you might want to do that? Yeah, and I mean and that's that's another key thing that I do as well, like I create a partnership with my hur counterpart. Like you know, right now I'm at a divisional level in the new company, and so I have already built that bridge with the divisional hr person and, you know, we communicate, you know, frequently. They were surprised when I said, Hey, we should have a month to call, you know, to make sure that if there's things I come across in my world that really belong in your basket, and vice versa. We you know, we have this open dialog in that you know, we're not here. You know, they need that same help to of crossing that bridge of not being cops, you know, because that happens to them a lot too, and really they're trying to create the same goal, the trying to achieve the same goal and environment that I am. You know, they're trying to you know, the total human health, you know, the wellness of the whole employee. They're the other they're the other piece of that. And so, yeah, that's a big thing that you want to do when you're working in this capacity is to have that strong relationship, you know, with your HR counterpart and with that team and making sure that, you know, you guys have a united front. You're not, you know, I'm not out doing one thing and causing them grief because I'm doing something counterproductive to what they're trying to achieve. Right, it's there. We spent a lot of time talking about successes and best practices. Let's kind of dive into the antithesis of that for a moment. Is there an experience that you've witnessed that was a failure that you think other people might be headed for, and, if so, what is that? Yeah, I mean, I've obviously been a part of things that have that have failed. I mean more on the task of I mean I've been, you know, I've been in an organization that's, you know, that's had an employee fatality before and you know, I would say that anyone that's not really looking at their their systems, especially their their management systems. You know where they're expecting. You know, hey, we trained the employees and they know all and they're going to go out and perform to a tea, you know everything that we've told them. Those folks are headed for catastrophe because really, you know what we found when we went through the whole you know, the the one, that particular incident I'm thinking of, when we really broke it down and you know, we went through the whole thing, it was that's employee had been operating and doing pretty high skilled, you know, maintenance work on some vehicles for a number of weeks with really no interaction with his supervisors at all. And you know, ultimately there was, you know, an error made in judgment on, you know, some safety systems that they should have been using. But I think if if those managers were honest with themselves and they had been checking in with this person, those kinds of deficiencies, you know, they get caught. You know, you're out there, you're interacting with your people and you know, again, the real safety manager at any job is whoever that operational supervisor is. I can't be on every job, I can't be at every task level, you know, whether you're working in a manufacturing plan or if you're working, you know, out in a big excavation or construction side or whatever. The people that are that are actually supervising the task level,...

...employees that are executing the work, they're the true safety manager and they're the ones that really have to be conscious of what's going on. And if you're not, if you don't have that happening in your organization, if your managers are at the desk, you know, typing on a computer most of the time, you've got a lot of risk that you don't know about. That that's happening. That's that's what that's that's what I learned from that failure, you know, and I take that with me all the time and I try to explain that whenever we have new managers. I sit down and I go through that with them. What it felt like to to go and, you know, speak with the family, you know attend this this young man's funeral, you know, see his family as children there. I mean it was a yeah, it was a lifechanging experience for me for sure. Yeah, I can imagine and I think for my experience as well, both being an employee and as a supervisor, I know that when the supervisors are more readily available it's definitely easier to ask them questions about stuff that maybe I don't know a hundred percent on. I can stop and ask them a question a lot easier rather than saying, well, they're not available, they may or may not answer their phone, they might be in a meeting. I'll just guess and wing it and I'll circle back with them later. Right. That's where I think some of those kind of things come into play. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So is there a particular tool or a resource that you have that's like a favorite got for you that you think maybe other people might not be using well or might not be using to its fullest? From I think most of us have a lot of the same access to things. I mean we use a an online system for injury tracking and you know all of that, that kind of stuff, but I don't know one of the things I know that that I that I try to push just to my real basic thing that I know that's very helpful, especially here in Florida, because I use the NIOSH heat index tool on the APP a lot and I try to get us, if not all of our employees. I definitely get all of my field supervisors and I that that's been a favorite of mine because now I'll get a lot of I mean I opened up a bag of worms, but I do get a lot of emails of like, Hey, this thing's in the yellow. Should I be doing this? Or Hey, this thing says it's going to be a hundred and six with the heat and decks, I shouldn't be working and you know, but it does that. That's one that I like a lot because it does keep them thinking about you know, if nothing else, it sets up in their their mind every more learning that, hey, you know, I do have an obligation to take care of these people that are working for me out here. As far as any other really large systems or stuff, you know, I think we're using the same things that most people are. You know, we have computer based incident, you know, tracking, and we've got automated insurance filing and all of that stuff. You know, I don't know how much they they make my job a little bit easier, but I don't know how much they're. Yeah, I definitely have seen benefits to having mobile APPS and mobile access and things of that nature. You know, having that ready access right your fingertips. So if you have like a safety manual that they can also load on their phone and employees can reference it in the field, those kinds of things. I've definitely been helpful from from markers, and we do that as well. We have a way that we can put our like the safety plan for a job, you know, on an APP and they can look at it on the phone and stuff. But yeah, yeah, yeah, those are the things I think that we we're pretty technology forward company, so it's kind of hard we do. We do so much with it that I forget that maybe not everybody is doing what we're doing. Yeah, one one person I was talking to you recently. They just stopped using paper forms in the field and switch to a mobile reporting APP. So it's definitely not something that everybody is yeah, yet we don't have too much paper anymore. Yeah, so, I mean, yeah, I guess I'm spoiled. It's been yeah, it's been a while since we've done anything like that. I mean I sometimes I wonder like where are those things that I yeah, they're all already they're already have already on the in my in my graphs and charts. I don't up to do anything. You know, there's no paperwork or me, like, I'm a big data person. I love having access to the computerized reporting because then you can you can run all the analytics, you can deep dive into the information,... can start looking at trend analysis, you can see the graphs of visually them. There's so much different ways that you can break down the data and it's almost in real time. I mean as fast as they upload their incident report or whatever they're doing, you can look at that data and start to break it down and compare it to other examples and just have a lot more information available. Yeah, absolutely, I mean I that that's the advantage is you want to be able to use your data and when you can visualize it to it really helps you. Again, that's another tool I use to gain that that trust with, especially that management piece, like when you can go out and, you know, at physically show them like with, you know, really cool graphics and stuff like Hey, this is what's happening, these are the dollar trends were losing, and you know, you put it in a way that it's memorable or that's useful for them and you know, then you know, I think it tends to stay with them. And it's the same thing when you're when you're talking to the C sweede or something. You know, you want to make sure that you're talking the right language, like you better be equating this to dollars and sense when you're talking to that room, you know, and you need to have those tools that can help you translate, you know, what you're seeing in the field to dollar amounts because, let's be honest, that's what they're you know, that's what their focus is, you know, especially when you have a we're a publicly traded company now, so we've got shareholders. So you better be able to explain to them through that language what it is that you're doing and why it's beneficial. So, yeah, the technology tools are there. Are must have at this point. Yeah, I don't say you get that view a data still on paper. It's it's today. You would have to pay somebody to manually key it into a program and curney something so much. There's only so much excel can do for you. Right. I mean it's right. Name, as you know, some of the other things that are out there now that you know really almost automate, like our animate is the word. I'm looking for animate your data so that it you know, you know, it really looks, comes to life and look, Oh wow, okay. So, yeah, and I've certainly notice and things like that, that there are trends that may be getting missed if you're trying to do it the old school way. Well, yeah, and that's the thing, the more ways you can look at the data, especially when you have a system that allows you to do that. That's one of the things. Like ours has a number of things. When I first got into it, I wasn't familiar with what they were, like why do I want to look at it this way? But I ran those reports and started to figure out like, Oh wow, this is an interesting way to look at this pie and it is telling you something kind of interesting, you know, and you know you find something new to get yourself into and you know, a new way to present information. But also sometimes you find actual problems or, you know, deficiencies in your system that you were unaware of. That's always a good day. I mean, even though it's a problem, it's still a good day because now that's something actionable that you can execute it, so I can fix this and I know where to begin right yeah, and that's the yeah, those are always good days when you when you have a new beginning and you say, wow, we have a new way to you know, to try to help and achieve our ideal. Try to hit that that that ideal zero. But that's what those systems offer you. Yeah, for sure. Is there I mean we were just talking about your kind of surprised by looking at the data another way, but is there anything else that your company has done recently, or maybe you have implemented as a process that you were surprised by the results of? Yeah, I'm in a unique situation because our my legacy company, MSC group, we had certain processes in the new company has a completely different platform. We're going from, you know, like a Microsoft based thing to a Google base thing, and so I'm a big learning curve trying to figure out like hey, I know this, they both probably do the same things, but I got to figure out how to make the other one do it. But yeah, I mean, you know, I don't know, we were pretty advanced for a small company. So there's a lot of things that that we had that they're asking us to scale across so much larger company. So I'm attempting to do something I've never done before, you know, take something that's kind of small and scale and move it into a new system and put it across twozero people instead of a hundred. So you know, obviously my our glitches that we might have had that we weren't seeing, we're they're probably going to come back bright shining in our phases here shortly because, you know, with that many more users, yeah, the chance of somebody finding the break... much greater. So yeah, we're anticipating that. But no, I haven't seen too many things like that. And differences, I guess, is what you asked me right. Yeah, yeah, and I know from personal experience like those learning curves and be brutal, I that's one of my things I hate the most that there's so much of a learning curve. I tend to kind of put it off and I'm like now, I'm not, I'll do this later. Yeah, there is a difference between I mean anyone that's outlook based, using like email through outlook. You get used to it, there's rules, you can make it do a whole bunch of stuff and I've been using it for a long time and you know, the new company is got a Google based system and I know it does all the same things, but they've purposely, I guess, move all the buttons two different parts of the screen. So or they're labeled something different. It's my time searching around, like like, how do I start an email? It took me a while to figure out that's what the pencils on, that on Google versus the yeah, yeah, it's definitely a learning curve. Yeah, is there something that your team has completed recently or that they've achieved that you've been really proud of within your agency? Yeah, I mean I I'm always proud of, you know, my field teams. But actually it's funny you ask that. Yesterday we just had an incident at an excavation that we you know, we had done everything right. You know, theoretically, you know we had called before we you know we're digging. We know we done the utility surveys and the ground surveys, we had the radar, we done all these things. We use the historical documents. Nothing's buried here. We're going to get some. You know, Geopro you know ground samples and we hit and and I'm unidentified. You know, natural gas line and the team executed the Emergency Man Management Plan, you know, far better than I would ever dreamed that. You know, like for me as an emergency operator in the path, you know, I know what smooth is and I also know like, Oh man, that could have been a lot better. You know, it was. It was really one of those moments fore you go, all right, this isn't great. We hit a gas line and the things, but it was notified all these people. The whole situation was mitigated within forty five minutes and you know, it turned out that we actually identified something for the client that they were unaware of. They had no idea that a private line had been cut through their property. They didn't even know who was there and we were we obliged them by finding it for them, probably in the worst way that you could make good news. It's covered this, but some good news and some bad news were but now that the teams have learned and you know and that they have that level of expertise was that was a big deal. You know, that's right. That was fresh. You know, still still doing the paperwork and stuff on that. So it was that was we deal though that we actually got some big comments back from the client already that they've said. You know, hey, we were really impressed that these guys knew what to do and you know, they they didn't make it worse. You know, they ly made the situation better and they, you know, prevented any further damage or any any injury from occurring, and so it was. Yeah, it was a good moment. Yeah, I definitely would chuck that up as a win in my book as well. I mean, any time that they can just respond to an emergency on the fly and it's smooth and it's efficient that they don't make it worse, that's definitely a good day. Yeah, it was. And so earlier we were talking about the risk factor analysis and trying to like the hypothetical zero and the return me diminishing returns that people could get involved with. How much do you think it plays a role in safety, like the attention to detail that maybe can be overlooked sometimes by people's speeding things through the process just for the sake of getting it done, versus going slow and methodically and like checking every box on a checklist or making sure that every stuff in the process is completed or that you're working with the right version of this product. As opposed to a different version. Do you think that those kinds of mistakes, they happen frequently and be you know, could have disastrous outcomes? Why is? It's relative to the work that you're doing. But again, yes, I mean if you you know, if you're not in control of, you know, the process, whatever it may be,... know. Obviously you have your whole separate field of process safety management. You know where you're working in laboratories with has, it is chemicals or whatever, and that's much more you know, it's easier in that realm to be black and white and say, you know, we're going to do a to be and you know, see doesn't happen until you know be is done and we don't, you don't jump steps, and then when you it's very easy there to see when steps are jumped, where the errors happen, and you go yeah, you can't do that. That's going to react every time that same way because the physical properties of these chemicals are always going to do that. Those are hard, hard facts. It becomes a little bit different from when. I think the principle holds true, but it's a little bit different, difficult to identify. Like let's say you're we pull a lot of tanks, a lot of underground storage tanks as a company. You know, we do a lot of that type of remediation work and it there's only so many ways you bury a tank. Right, we've seen right, you know, we've gotten into some weird ones and everything, but for the most part they're generally the same and that's the kind of work, you're right, that can lend itself to repetition. We know what it is. We're going to do it the same way. And you know what, now we can speed it up. You know, last time we did it in, you know, eight hours. Let's do it in six. Oh without how we could try to do it in for and I yes, I agree with you that. That is where, again without a strong management group to say hey, that's that's not our mission. Our mission is to get the tank out of the ground. You know, we bid this at a certain time for a reason and let's take the time to make sure, you know that, that we don't cause ourselves some you know, undo catastrophe that was, you know, just eat some profit. You know, I mean you know that's yeah, I definitely think that's true. Yeah, that that can get those those competing interests of time and night and savings and it kind of it's a mess with everything. Yeah, it does, and you always have to go back to that. Yeah, you can make more profit if you finish early, but if you've been the project right, the profit was already bit into it with the time that you built to do the work. Like right. Sometimes it's end taking a short curt yeah, you know, with the Lititius society that we live in, I think taking a shortcut like that unnecessarily. You know, now you're paying in all employee compensation or or damages or something else, and that definitely eats into that profit in the long run. So, yeah, you can run a project's profitability quick yeah. So it's it's all about finding that balance, for sure. All right, Josh, what I want to be mindful of your time. So thank you for joining us this week. been listening to the Safety Management Show brought to you by Safety Services Company. It's been a pleasure having you, Josh. Thanks very much. Hey, thanks for having me. In need of a blueprint for workplace safety and compliance. Safety Services Company is North America's leading provider of safety training and compliance solutions. We supply custom safety manuals and policies and onsite and online training solutions that will enhance the safety of your workplace, and our compliance services will save you time and resources, guaranteeing peace of mind. With eighteen years in the industry, we have a proven track record of helping customers achieve better safety outcomes by providing customized solutions that fit the unique needs of each business. To learn more, head to safety services COMPANYCOM. Thanks for listening to the Safety Management Show. To hear more stories from safety leaders, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you enjoyed the show, leave us a rating. Until next time, stay safe.

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