The Safety Management Show
The Safety Management Show

Episode 14 · 11 months ago

Revenue, Relationships, and SOPs - Being a Real EHS Leader w/ Todd Waldron


Companies that put more emphasis on production and the bottom line will still lose revenue because of employee safety incidents.

Having someone on board who’s passionate about EHS pays its own dividends.

In this episode, Todd Waldron, Environmental Health and Safety Supervisor at Comstock Resources, joins us for a lively conversation about being a truly effective EHS leader.

A combat vet and former Air Force firefighter, Todd has over a decade of industry experience and a highly-trained eye for risk assessment. His insights are spot-on.

We’ll discuss:

  • Establishing top-down safety procedures that actually get followed
  • Building internal relationships and trust to encourage compliance
  • Whether safety reward programs really work
  • Administratively crippling your workforce with overly detailed SOPs
  • Passing the torch

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Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for The Safety Management Show in your favorite podcast player.

You're listening to the safety management show. We're safety professional share engaging stories about their time in the trenches and the hard earned lessons they've learned along the way. Let's dig in. Hi, this is Jackson. Welcome to the safety management show. I have the pleasure today of having Todd Waltering with me. He is the ehs supervisor with comstock resources. Todd, you've got a really great background. Your veteran. You twenty two years in safety and I know you started your safety career back when you were in the US Air Force. So I'm interested to hear a little bit about how that started for you and what Piques your interest. Will Truth be told, to be quite honest, is sixteen years old. I actually started in public safety span a firefighter and or volunteer firefighter in my hometown. Join the air force, loved it and with a firefighter in the air force and then became or started doing squadron safety. They're helping out the base within the Civil Engineering Group. We took care of all the road construction, electrical, I mean anything civil engineering wise, is what we did, and so learning, learning Canada basics and having the air force put me through there a Fox standards and whatnot as far as classes went. That is how I got into safety and know and that, hey, you know because of the firefighter your or an ems, your reactive when stuff goes wrong and as doing safety, your more on the proactive end of it. So that's really what Pete my interest of trying to be proactive, getting people to buy into the policies, procedures and things like that that are out there. So that's where it started. I mean it tons of fun and it's been it's been a right it's been a roller coaster right ever since. How cool is that? And you're still a volunteer firefighter. Right, I do every once in a while with if if it's bad enough, like usually house fires. I don't really go to much else anymore. So okay, there's a need for that, you know. I know you're from a small community, so you know, I'm sure that they appreciate you having around. Always good to have a safety guy on standby for stuff like that. Sometimes they don't like that part of it, but where's your PPE? Right, don't go in a house without your bunker gear and a air Mac going a tay it. Don't do that. Don't do that. Anyway. Yeah, we're not going to do that. So we talked a little bit previously about commonly held beliefs that you disagree with, and one of the things that we had a discussed was company is referring to direct and indirect cost or Roi. So tell me a little bit about your feeling on that. Well, I mean it. I feel like that the companies put more onus on the bottom line and and when I say the bottom line, is like how much this year we going to make, right, and they don't put as much on workers safety and the back cost. You know, again, it like we spoke before. It was, you know, insurance rates go up when you have a lost time or even a recordable or somebody gets hurt on the job, whatever, fatalities, any of those kinds of things, insurance rates go up, and I feel like some companies do not see it as that and that they will continuously try to push more production, production, production, into it, right, instead of what's why are we losing money? What's going on? Why are we you know, at the end of the year we want to make a hundred million, but yet we only made fifty. What happened? Well, you had X number incidents and you're direct and indirect cost associated and your insurance rates, etc. Etc. All those things come into play and it's something that I feel like companies need to to take a step back and actually look at those things, and I think they would actually...

...realize that, hey, you know, safety is a big thing. If that is where they're losing, you know, their money's obviously, but I mean there's several other areas where they could as well. So I mean kind of take right now. You know, inflation and all these other things go into line with that. Cost of goods. Definitely. And, you know, speaking of costs of goods, since you mentioned it, another area that we kind of touched on was companies wanting to spend money on equipment. You know, we talked a little bit about faull pro. You know I recently did. I'm now certified for Faull pro, which was fun. We have a really cool training center that one of my friends has here in town, so it was really great to go. But talk to me of a little bit about, you know, the the lack of spending when it comes to equipment in areas like faull pro. Well, I mean, I'll be honest with you, there's a there's a guy that I agree with. Once did dirty jobs. His name is Mike Row and he always said safety. Third, okay, and and in all actuality, you know, all the companies that he went and visited, oil or businesses or whatever, and they had a safety program. You know, there was always that one person. You know, they're as a crew, they're going through this process of you have to wear faull protection, you have to do this, you need a hard hat, safety glasses, etc. TAIBEX suits, whatever it may end up being, but there's always that one employee with this company that they visited that doesn't have any of that CRAPP one, you know. And so that's why, you know, and there's some things out there these written about safety. Third and you know, it just comes back to ownership. I mean really, you know, top down approach, making sure the people understand that if you have a good safety program or ehs program, whatever you want to call it, out there, it is, you know, a top down approach, from the CEO to the VP's, to the managers, to the supervisors, to the lowest dude that's been there for a week, right, and to have somebody that actually speaks about those things and that's passionate about it. You know it and I think it plays its own dividends. And then you have people that understand the hey man, they actually care about me. So anyway, yeah, carrying is, you know, definitely important and we look to our leadership to be our leaders. That's why we call them that. And if they don't buy into the whole safety program I find that, you know, employees are less likely to do so as well. But not only, you know, top level management, but your daytoday, supervisors that are, you know, covering a crew for the day, if they're just worried about production and not worried about their employee safety, that can definitely make a difference in how the people view it. In Oil and gas I see it quite often when a supervisor will show up on location and, yeah, he's got his Hillard, had on, his sors whatever, but he will walk out and be with the guys that have zero safety glasses. I mean it's still a policy, is still required by, you know, every olden gas operator. It's in their own policies that they wear these things. Or they're turning a wrench without having gloves on. You know, they're standing in a pinch, pinch, point area or a line of fire area, and it's like in your supervisor, what are you doing? You know, and sometimes you have to correct those things and the guys are looking at you. What do you what are you doing? You know? I mean, do you care about your own safety? You know, is really when it comes down to it. So yeah, I mean, you know, that kind of circles back to another area that we discuss, the the policy procedure process, right, and and you mentioned that. You know what kind of gets people overthink it. You know, what are you what are your ideas when it comes to not overthinking those three areas? See what works in the field first, before I would say just just throwing something out. There's a knee jerk...

...reaction, you know, with with every policy or a procedure process, fop, whatever people want to call it, right, there are always, I'm not going to say repercussions, but there could be potential repercussions to what they put black and white on a piece of paper. And here in lies the other thing too, is is your company really going to follow what you're putting on paper or you just check in a box? You know, there's several times when I've done investigations when incidents occurred. I'm like cool, let me see your policy on this, and they'll show it to me and it's like, you know, your guys aren't doing half of this stuff and they're like no, they are. I'm like no, they're not. I've been watching them for like, you know, I've seen this, I've seen that. This isn't you know, they're not doing this, and you can kind of, you know, nitpick it a little bit. But at the same time, if you're going to have a policy, make sure it's something that you yourself, is a manage management team, is going to follow and your employees lower down the food chain are going to follow. Yeah, definitely comes into place and then, you know, incorporated with that is the whole you know, procedure in process. So when it comes to rolling things like that out to your team's you know, what do you think is the best way to do that? Yet buy in? If you have a guy that's been in your in your in your company for fifteen pack five years, you know that is really good who runs a good crew. Maybe he's one to like, not necessarily a supervisor, but a lead guy. Right, get his buying in and get his his take on what's trying to to roll out. Obviously, when it comes to Oshan policies right, those are pretty cut and dry. You know, you follow your nine ten or nine hundred and twenty six standard depending on the industry that you're working in. But there's a way for companies to actually implement those correctly, again, to get by in from the League people that are out there with the workers, even supervisors, and then you go to managers etc. Kind of follow it back up. Hey, does this? Does this apply? Is this applicable to what we're trying to get done? Or there any hazards? Did you see with how we're writing this? Because again, it's black and white and if something bad happens and Osha has to come in and do an investigation, guess what? Were you following what you had on paper, yes or no? And that's basically where it is. And and I've seen several times in my career where it's not nice of a fine when you have it on paper and it's not being followed by the individuals out there. So it's you got to know how to implement it. You got to know how to get the buy into where the supervision can actually take hold and make sure the guys are doing what they need. Yeah, big, that's a big factor in the finds. You know, I see him every day. You know, where people have stuff written but they're not following it. And then, you know, we all know that the Osha likes to revisit places since they find Oh yeah, there was just recently an incident that I read about. Some people were killed and they had been to that site multiple times and the company kept changing its name and in order to avoid they would find bankruptcy and then open and under another name or just shut down the business and open and under another name. They held the owners personally liable. Finally, after willful and negligent Yep, yeah, it's it's it's crazy the links people will go to to, you know, have something written and think that it that's good enough. Yeah, it's really not. So a little more on buying. So, you know, it's great...

...that you have management putting in these policies and procedures and all this stuff in place, but if they don't believe in it, you know, from from the top down, it definitely affects everybody along the way. What's a way? You think safety professionals could go about getting buy in from management. It starts with building the relationships and I see it oftentimes a lot. You know, especially in my industry, that you know there's tons of styfety cops out there and I don't believe in being that guy. Right. I believe that there is a way to work within the policy, work within ocean standards, etc. Where we still get the job done and sometimes live in the gray area. Right. That's how I get kind of the buy in sometimes out in the field. Now when you're trying to talk to management about it. Here it probably the last five to seven years I have seen more managers support EHS programs and it wasn't that way when I first got in the oil and gas industry and and you know, you had the good old boy system and think as along that line and this is how we've always done it. Blah, blah, blah, you're just a safety guy, basically, beat sit in the corner and color. Now it's we actually have, you know, a voice right of what should happen. In a sense, it's not just upper management making the policies. They actually listen to us, but in turn we can take those to the field level guys and go hey, does this work? Yes or no? Again, it kind of goes back to the buy in on that. So I think that with everything these days, the the knowing and willful part that you're speaking of earlier. And then culpability, you know, Liabilities, lawyers. Everybody wants to sue everybody, you know, so there's an injury or something happens, you know, it kind of goes to that. But ultimately having the buying of management and building those relationships and like I don't know everything. I know I don't know everything, but I'm willing to tell a manager, Hey, what are you talking about and like can you help me understand it better, because I think if you're able to kind of be humble in your knowledge, it actually helps you out later down the line. Of Okay, so I know this because I'm the HS guy, but I don't know what you guys do. In this particular instant. It tell me what it is. We had an issue. I want to understand more and we come to kind of a common agreement of okay, this is how corrective action should be made. It helps me out, I mean it really does. I mean kind of being being humble and asking questions. I mean that's, I think, how I've been able to build the relationships in the trust within my management teams. Nice, Nice, and you know, that kind of brings me to the other portion. You know, we talked about buy inform management, but we also talked a little bit about, you know, something that you've been trying to do better, and we talked about being visual in appearance by management and how that boost morale. So tell me a little bit about that. Everybody used to do safety bonuses and it was always a good thing. You know, everybody like hell, yeah, we're going to get a safety bonus if we do this, but we're not going to report this because then we lose our safety bonus. You know it to me, I use it. I've used this several times. Eighty six thousand four hundred seconds, or in a day, really in a twelve in a twelve hour period that the guys are working. Right there's half of that. Eighty six thousand four hundred. Okay. The reward, in my...

...opinion, is if they show up with these and they leave with these and everything is in play day and they go home to their kids, their wife, their families, whatever. That's to me is the biggest thing, reward that anybody could ask for, you know. So that's that's kind of my take on that one. Okay, okay, yeah, you know, the whole reward for safety thing just like blows my mind sometimes. It just you know, we're going to pay you to be safe, when going home safe should be, you know, and I should be the ultimate goal, right, we all want to go. Yeah, you know, when it goes back to the eighty six thousand four hundred, I mean you take one of those seconds and you make the wrong decision against the policy of procedure, process is sope or whatever you got, guess what? You come out, you know, fingerless, or you come out with your eye you know, you got to be taken to the hospital because you freaking poked your eye out with something, or, you know, God forbid, somebody from the company, you know, is knocking on your wife's door and saying, Hey, we made the he made the wrong call today, he's not coming back. You know, I mean, and it really takes it takes fractions of seconds. I mean in oil and gas, I mean pressure is probably the it's kind of how I want to say silent killer, but in a way it kind of is because if you don't check and make sure stuffs bled off, I mean two, three, four, five psi behind a needle vowl that blows out or or a little fitting or something like that. I mean it's kind of like a bullet. You know it's going through you. So I think really, with the end of the day, if people got to realize that, you know, safety, safety reward programs are good, but it there's a better I think there's a better way to justify how you gage those bonuses, those money's or whatever the case is. So, you know, I mean again, it going home at the end of the day with the way you came out, going and hug in your kids when you're done with the twelve hour shift, fourteen days, whatever it is. Right. I think that's the to me, that's the that's the ultiment. Holy Crap, I did what I needed to do, I followed what I needed to follow and I'm back home. I've made money for my family. I can buy them an Iphone, I can buy them, you know, pay my bills for what, you know. Yeah, so, yeah, definitely, you know, getting home safe and sound and making sure the guy next to you goes home safe and sound is, you know, really what it should be about. So that kind of brings me to our next question. So we talked a little bit last time about a failure that you've experienced that you think a lot of folks are headed for when it comes to safety. You know, what do you get on that? I mean that the previous question and this one, I think im go in line with each other, to be honest with you. I mean it does. The the safety bonuses, the I mean everybody wants money, don't get me wrong, and if you can do it in a safe manner, you're not cutting corners. Great, okay, programs like that. You know, I'm kind of in a way going to contradict myself, because programs can work that way if they're done and managed appropriately. I there have been several companies I've known, have known, that do these bonus programs and it ends up biting them in the butt because a lot of stuff happening in the field level right working in the field and it's not being reported, and then the guy goes into hospital, into the you know clinic or whatever hospital, or his PCP the day of now he's got an...

...infection in his finger. Well, how did you do that? Well, I did it on location. It's such as such. Why don't you report it? Well, I wanted my safety bonus. Well, now the dudes losing his finger. So there's things like that that I feel if they're managed with the right way, and there's not. I don't want to say punishment, because you've had yet that that gage there. That's one of the areas where I feel like it it's headed probably toward the wrong direction. But on the other hand, I mean I've seen, we mentioned policies and procedures that you know, I've seen, as I've seen so sops more than I have seen a policy or or fops and like procedures. Right Stan, are operating processes and stuff that have hindered people to the extent that it takes literally thirty minutes to do a five minute job. There are several companies out there that you have to have this done, this done, this, done, you know, eighteen steps of whatever before the guys actually can ever turn a rinch, and I don't think that's right. You know, you're over over administratively crippling your workforce. Okay, yeah, I've spoken with a few people that are at companies like that. You know, they have these fancy tablets that, you know, tell them Oh, this position, this which, it has its benefits. You any mean like if you're going up three stories on a ladder, you want to make sure it's position properly and tied off properly and all that good stuff. But you know, I think sometimes they can be a little extreme in Oh yeah, they're directive. So definitely with that. So let's talk about things that people aren't using correctly or to the fullest. You know, we talked a little bit about computer based training. I know you've got some opinions and feelings on that, so let's go there. This is the one question I was hoping you weren't going to you're going to skip over now. I like, I like, I like CBD train. It CBT training. Computer based training is only as good as the program that is there. Right there's several computer based training, software systems, program whatever in this day and age and it does hit on the regulatory standards within either nineteen ten or twenty six, whichever, and they're usually pretty good. But the individuals are they're clicking a button, you know, and that's really all it is, because you can literally have a safety meeting the same exact month or a month later, or a couple of months later of the exact same CBT that happened, say a couple of months prior, and ask questions and nobody knows the answer. They're just sitting there clicking the mouse to try to just okay, I got to spend thirty minutes sitting in front a computer, leape dipty dude right, but it's a condition of employment, so they do it. So that's one area where I feel like isn't really use correctly and I don't know what the is. Kind of like I told you the first time we talked. You know, I don't know what the correct way is. I really don't, and it's good to be competent. You know, hey, I can click a mouse. I know what what I was just standard for excavation is or rigging or any of these other things. But you know, really, it is what it is. I mean you're clicking a mouse now, a tool like we we we have a hot card program and...'s kind of behavior base safety basically, and I feel like companies that have a BBS program don't. There are companies that I've seen that don't. Don't use it to the fullest potential of what it should be. I like actually behavior base safety programs, and the best way for that I've presented to my guys and stuff in the field and to get to buy in. The understanding is like, Hey, it's not a tattletale tool, like I don't care what Johnny did yesterday or what you heard through the grape vine or any of that kind of stuff. It's work related. It is you know, we have a we have a block on there for like exceptional safety. Like if there's four crews working together, they had a JSA, they had all their PPE, they you know, good communication with whatever it was, etc. Etc. Nobody was in line of fire, pinch points, etc. Sure you know exceptional safety, man write it up. Let us know, like good things are happening out there. It's not just a negative tool right. And then there is we have a one side that near miss or Hazard Id that they had noticed. And then, but how did you control it? Is the bottom box, the right hand side of ours, agains the behavior base safety portion of it and when it comes down to it, those those I feel like are used more to tattle on Johnny than it is to because I don't like him because he looked at me funny two days ago when I was digging a hole or something. Right, you know, and I will. I've always presented as guys. I don't. I don't want you to tell on people there and they like your name, like the person turning it in is the only name on the card period, you know, to get our drilling department to do it, to get the completions department to get in line to do it, the production guys, etc. And and for like, basically, you know, the field side of the house to be in line and to turn in really good stuff. Like I always tell them, I want quality over quantity. I want to know like, Hey, I stopped the dude from freaking getting crushed by forklift yesterday. Like to me, that's quality. You know, when you're writing a hazard ID out, I was watching the wire line guys. They were lifting up the lubricator. One Guy I was standing underneath the lubricator. Who is being lifted? No tagline, etc. Etc. You know, okay, cool, great. You put a behavior on there and how did you correct it? What coaching did you provide? How what kind of feedback was there? And and conversations so I think you know, behavior base safety. There's two parts about that. It can be used really, really bad and then it can be reused in a very good way to where it can drive incident rates down, and I've seen it. I mean I've seen that across I mean you're going to have your mechanical failure, you can have your human errors and things like that, but there are a lot less than initially there were right before the program was rolled out. So that's one area that I feel very passionate about his behavior base safety because myself, the ehs group, we can't be on every location. It didn't given time. So it kind of gives that ownership to well site supervisors, to production guys, you know, drilling superintendence, drilling form and etc. To write these up as they see him or to correct it themselves. I mean, even if it's like Kund let's say it's a slow week and he's walking the rig and okay, there's powerwashing hose all jingle jingled at the, you know, foot of the stairway. Mean picked it up, moved it out of the way, I had a conversation with the motor men or for hand or whatever. If, like, Hey, don't do that again. You know, so it. I've seen all kinds of stuff...

...and a lot of them have been quality stuff. I mean, like I said it, even even it may sound my newt, but a powerwaher, you know, nozzle and hose and everything else, at the foot of the stairs. It's you're descending and, let's say it's a night you know, you could be in a bounder real quick you trip through that. So anyhow, I mean, even though it seems small, it is still a hazard. Id that was noticed, recognized and corrected. So, and that's what it's all about, right. You know, you don't want to hear that billy didn't have his safety goggles on yesterday. You know, you're right, I'm telling you, I could write that up a hundred times a day. I'll be honest with you. It was funny because I just had a conversation with someone who's in the construction side of oil and gas, right, and he was telling me about how they have the cards, you know, and they stopped making it mandatory, right, they had to fill them out right, because everybody was writing. They were getting, you know, twenty cards a day. That said, you know, billy didn't have his his glasses on and Johnny didn't have his gloves on, and that's all they all said. So they they changed how they were doing things and went with the quality, and so they're actually offering there. I don't want to call it an incentive or bonus or whatever, but you know, if you turn in a quality card, it has, you know, some value to it, something that maybe they could use in a safety meeting somewhere, things like that. Then they get put into like a raffle. Right. It's to get quality out of people and by not making it mandatory, and you know I'm not making it mandatory and I'm not paying you to do it. I really want to know what's going on on my site. So you know that he had a pretty similar, you know, story as to what you were saying, and it's Chev is it is. I mean with what I do, I mean I had some Fr shirts made up that has our logo on it, you know, with a pocket. You know, everybody says tshirts cool with a pocket. I don't know why, but whatever. Put your cell phone in it, I guess, but you know, the guys appreciate I mean, even though it's something like it's you know, I'm not giving a fifty gift card. I'm just giving them an FRC shirt that's got the company logo or a ball cap or something like that. I mean it. Hey, man, I read your card the other day. Oh you actually read those? I'm like, yeah, I read everyone that comes across my computer. It doesn't matter if it's drilling completions, production construction. You know, hey, I was at the House and I saw this at the gym and they write them up. I mean like I mean, it's cool to see the the the buy and it's happening with the program and, like I said, the quality of the cards on locations and even at the House. I had one the other day that was actually really, really cool and and it was it was you know, I was at home and this is what happened and I was read through it and I'm sitting there like man, they do listen. Yeah, they do pay attention to the safety meetings and stuff. So they do, and it's funny. You know, my my roommate works for a major manufacturer of consumer goods and she's part of their art team and you know, she's on their safety committee and she'll come home like she'll have had a meeting and she knows that, you know, like I have, I have some, you know, a couple of initials in assert or two and she'll be like hey, we talked about, you know, lockout, tag out today and I'm like really, and she's like yeah, I got these locks and I'm like well, how that? You know, I said, you know, that's a training that I offer, right, and she's like,...

...well, what do you mean? It's a training, it's not like the that big of a deal, and I'm like well, it is. You know, absolutely if you just shut the machine off, and I'm like no, you it has to be deenergized and there's all these other things and she's like really, I didn't know that, like because when they shut something off it shuts down the entire line. So right, it's a little bit different. She didn't realize that it wasn't like that in every industry or at all companies. So, you know, it's funny how things come up when you're at home. You know, our fridge went out and she was like do I need to deenergize it? And I'm like, you know, you're rolling, roll, roll, roll it out and I'm plug it from the wall. Yeah, she thought she was being slick with that one. So right, it was funny. You know, one of the cool things that we talked about day, I think is important to discuss and and just to kind of bring it to the forefront, is something that you talked about with retired people coming in and and having a relationship a company, having a relationship with a person that's retired and what they can bring to the table even though they're retired. So, you know, I want to hear more about that. So what brought that conversation on the last time we spoke was that my boss it when I was at a previous company, actually now works with works for me as kind of a crazy role, and it was one that I didn't know quite how to manage when I first started it, to be quite honest, other than the fact that I knew that his wife was tired of him sitting at the House and fishing all the time. So I had I had to kind of give him something to do. But he is, he's like you know, there's there's there's quality people that have worked within any industry that do retire. Some of them don't want to ever think about it again, right, and I get that and then there's others that are genuinely, genuinely, I think, miss it, no matter if it's a retired person or somebody that got promoted to different in a different company or any of those kinds of things. But keeping those relationships open, I feel like, not just within the environmental, health and safety industry side of things, but is a company in a hole, because there's a lot of valuable information there. And since we last spoke, we had one of our managers pass and a wealth of knowledge went with that, you know, and and those are unfortunate things that occur and and you know, it tears me up thinking about the things that that he knew, the conversations that we had and things along that line and knowing that day, I wish I would have spent just a couple more hours in his office this day or that day or whatnot. You know. But as far as like retired people go and the ones that have moved to other companies, no matter if they retired or not, they could be promoted to a manager or VP, whatever the case is. But if you have those relationships and things come up that you know, sometimes it's, you know, the whole smell test. You know this isn't really smell right, you know. I mean, let me call somebody that has a zero knowledge of what's going on, let me describe it to what you know, to them what's going on, what's happening, etc. And See if what I'm thinking they you know, they'll get the same idea, right, or am I like way outside the box with whatever is going on? So there's there's a lot of knowledge there. I mean it, there really is for the for the older generation to pass on to the younger guys. See that more and more nowadays than originally. Again, earlier in my career, when it was a good old boy system, and it's like hi, you got to learn on your own Patna, you know, right. So you got to... for you walk, then you got to do this, this, this, and then you're going to end up without a finger, and it's like okay, well, that's not really the right way to do things, because why should somebody have to lose a limb, you know. So, but I see the older generation nowadays actually wanting to teach and educate the younger guys and it's and it's cool, even the Middle Guy, I mean like not somebody that's like a lead guy, but like somebody is seasons, you know, been there while, you know they're they're they're like Linden hands and not I mean, granted there are some that don't do it at all, but I think you're going to have that anywhere. I mean I had it in the far department, to be honest with you, and it was like hey, you you got to get your lumped before you can kind of understand anything. So I retired people really do benefit the younger guys and the education that's going on out there, and as long as they're willing to soak it in. That's the other part. If they don't care or they have that, you know, just a bad attitude or whatever, I mean you always can tell the ones that want to know compared to the ones that I'm just here for a paycheck. So yeah, I think it's like that. You know, like you said, anywhere there's so much to be knowledge to be shared, and you know I'm a big proponent of you can't keep it unless you give it away, and and so you know I have. I save everything that anybody that was here before me is sent to me. My desktops some mess, but it's full of really cool stuff that people just coming in don't have right because people aren't sharing it anymore. And you know, it's nice to be able to share the information that you have help somebody come up a little bit along the way and you know, all that kind of thing. But you know, I learned from the people that were here before me. So definitely, you know, that's a big thing. Ships with that, that's a big thing. I mean, I remember things, and I still have a few of them, from when I broke out off shore and you know, it was bad. He was a navy he was an ex navy guy, retired, and you know, again it was like I'm just I'm here, and he's like yeah, your first hit. She's like this your first twenty eight days out of here. Gives what? This is what I want you to do. Sit Down and just pay attention and listen. Don't don't reinvent the wheel. You know, I'll walk you through everything you need to know, but don't reinvent the wheel. Just sit down and pay attention. Build your relationships first, and I was like okay, I can do that, I can talk to people. I'm walk around and just be bop around right, and then I started doing the the audits and the things that got me more familiar with the the hazard areas and things like that. And as I went through and the longer I was there, the guys I could see them. Instead of he's at least psychety guy, man, stay away from him, it was like, okay, we can frost him, you know, to help us out if we need it, when we need it, etc. So it's the older guys. I mean, when I'm telling you, it's crazy when you see somebody with thirty years experience in an industry with zero degree, that is made it to be a superintendent or or even a manager. Okay, and then you have individuals that have fifteen years experience who paid attention to a lot of things and they're like a VP of operations. And I I've seen so many different levels. I mean I've seen guys with degrees that just tank, you know, and then they're out there, you know, turn it a rinch somewhere, and I've seen guys that had degrees and that, you know, Excel and become vice president of operations, you know. And those are the guys on both sides, educated in the...

...field and educated in the classroom. They both know what the industry and where it's going, no matter if one's here and one gets to hear vice, versa, whatever the case is, it's their knowledge. If they're able to collaborate together, their knowledge helps out the company in a whole. Yeah, collaboration is definitely a big key, I think today, you know, everybody kind of tends to go online and Google everything and, you know, try and try and like that's the answer to the world. You know, I'm pretty sure I had a dictionary and, you know, the neighbor next door or my grandma or, you know, somebody that I got knowledge from and as sometimes I think there's more to be said for that than, you know, being able to, you know, get a degree and and just walk out and go, you know, I'm I know all of this. Yes, you know. Well, okay, you know it all. What are you going to do with it? Yeah, what are you going to do when this happened? So yeah, absolutely, you know, experience as a key. Having relationships with other and is an ehs professional. Do not pay attention to whatever wikipedia says. I had somebody do that to me one time and I called them out on it. Don't do it, for whoever's listening out there these days, if you're even paying attention, don't use wikipedia to try to prove something. Sorry, is that even still a thing as a as about six months ago? Yeah, apparently it is. So anyway, that's crazy because I'm pretty sure I could go in and change information in Wikipedia. Um, so, you know, that might be fun to do one day just for kicks and giggles. Let's throw it throwing random stuff and people. Yeah, Wal Mart, I mean right, somebody cites that in a Freakin instant report. You're like you thinking anyway. So what a recent thing that you've tried it your company that you were surprised by the results of? Honestly, I think. I mean it really kind of goes back to when we rolled the BBS program out, you know, not putting numbers in a quota on on what's going on out there, instead of, you know, each manager. I'll say it this way. Each manager put a quote themselves on their guys. Okay, the safety, the EHS, the partment did not. I again, when this first rolled out, I wanted quality and and even with a quota. No Lie, even with a quota of one a week, however long you're working whatever. Okay, some of that, like the Drinling guys are own fourteen, fourteen schedule, the completions guys, they're kind of sporadic, but quality cards. I see more quality cards from our operations than I ever could have like initially thought. I mean, I'll just be honest with you. I mean you do end up kind of getting the crazy ones. Everyone's in a while that are like crap, I haven't turned what in. I need to write something up real fast. That's like salt truck driver without hard hat. Tone. Put It on and I okay, that the all right, I get it. But I mean, for the most part, out of out of for every one of those, I'll say it this way, for every one of those, or safety glasses, hot you know, hot card, for every one of those, I have at least five quality cards. And so you know, to me that that that's and that's what I preached to the guys when they asked me about when they asked me about those things. What, what can? I can kind of write a hot card on this. You know, sometimes they'll be like, Hey, I'm going to write a hot card on this. I'm like, Dude, I'm already doing an incident report like you can't. It's already happened. There was no prevention. Yes, you can write a behavior because... was human error or whatever. I was like, but you can't do it. I'm already going to put it in the system. Is An incident. So No, you, no, no. Well, man, you know, you kind of get the guys that Jack with you about that. But I think that's the part that I like to is that they're able to ask those questions whenever I'm in the field or call me and ask me, email me whatever. You know, I I've had guys text me before and be like Hey, man, I saw this happen. I don't know if it's a hot chord, where would it fall? And I'm like and I'll call him and be like okay, what did you see? Because what they text me like perception, is like my perception, your perception, or two totally different things. Right. So if I see something and it's perceived as a hazard but you don't see it that way, and then it's like okay, let's discuss it, let's figure out was it a hazard, was it a behavior? You know, those kinds of things. So but, like I said, I really think that the BBS program and having those open lines. Communication was all the field, you know, like I said, production completions, construction, drilling, everything out there. Having that is been very it's been good. I mean, like I said, the our incident rates of the going down and that's as it's a positive thing, you know. So and, like I said, no matter if from handing out a frickin ball cap or, you know, and fur shirt. So and that kind of ties in, you know, to another question. Something that you and your team have done recently. They you've achieved that you're really proud of. And I know you just mentioned some low incident rate. So what's that look like? Yeah, we have low incident rates. I mean obviously we have several contractors out there that work for our company as third party or primary is or whatnot, and then our employees and a whole. And I think right now we're like in a point five seven, I think, or four seven. Should have had that number. My bad. I think we're four four seven for the year. So, you know, as it a rates, you know, drive the insurance rates. It kind of goes this kind of all can tie in together really when it comes down to it. You know, when we're able to keep the indirect costs in the direct costs low for company our size and keep our incident rates low for a company our size, insurance rates and things kind of that people and companies only see, you know, there in the abdex part of things right that, for me, I feel like it speaks volumes for what a good hs group can accomplish and can do. Now, granted, you know, we've talked all about a lot of safety. We also have to deal with the environmental things inside the wild in gas realm, but that's kind of another you know, that's a whole another section of the world that I don't want to get into, to be quite honest with it. So I really love safety. But having again, it just everything, I think correlates all back to that, that portion of the you know, the evidence of the insurance, the direct and direct and if you're able to keep your employees safe right now, how do you do that? Well, again, it goes back into buying right. So and it has them to think about those eight, six thusand four hundred seconds. You know, Holy Crap, if I do this, I didn't, Oh, I didn't. I didn't shut that valve over there. Hole. Okay, I can go shut that vowel before I do this, because I may end up checking myself up, you know. So I think as a team we've done a really, really great job, and I mean from you know, and when I say a team, I'm not just talking about our HS... I'm talking about from the COEO VP, the managers across the operations, the engineers across that and everything trickling down. EHS, for me, is just a part of that whole big old umbrella. So and hat again. Having the buy in from the cello down has really really helped, I think, drive a lot of our rates and drive a lot of the costs associated with that down. Now I'm just a small guy on the Totem Pole, so I may be completely talking out of my rear it when I say that, but I would like to think that with the commitment and things I've seen in the conversations I've seen across these these levels of within our company, of the management side, I would like to say that, you know, we are we are doing what we should be doing across the entire team and then within our little niche vj stuff. Nice. Nice. So you did mention you know, you guys work with some third party and you have some contractors. How does communicating the level of safety that your company values trickle down to those other companies that do stuff for you? What's that relationship with like? I'll say this that one of our superintendence has put it to me like this. If they can't work with safety, they can't work with for us. He stands behind that, you know, if I can't get it taken care of kind of behind the scenes, he he wants to know, you know, he wants to know. Hey, either the individual is no longer on location, the super somebody. There's got to be some kind of hey, this is our expectation, here's our we want your commitment, but if you can't do it, see later. And that goes with the drilling side to I've seen it on that side as well. If you times never really been stated in the light, you know, as previously mentioned. But if they can't safely do a job and things continuously mess up or they continuously hurt their employees or things like that, I mean they don't. That's that's pretty much shows me that the commitment from the managers that run those areas how committed they are to getting, you know, two companies to getting two companies that can do it, you know, and it will do it. And obviously there's always that cost differential in there of like, okay, we were paying XYZ this amount of money. Well, we want to bring in element op right, but about five grand more a day? Can we make it happen? Let's see if they're safer, let's see if through this, let's see if they're operations better and and I have seen where XYZ basically just got cut because this company, even though they're five grand a day better or more. Excuse me, okay, they're actually doing a really good job. They're actually cutting costs ultimately by how efficient they are with a personnel that they have. So to times, the bottom of the barrels not always the greatest thing. Sometimes the middle of the Road Guy, you know, the middle of the Road Company is the one you kind of want to look at because they have better quality people. You're you're right, and you know we do. So I deal with a lot of oil and gas people, construction as well, but one of the things that that I handle is pre qualification accounts. Right. So your ISS ends of at a Vera Force, all those all those crazy people that you know. Yeah, we all got to work through,...

...right. So, you know, we'll have people and they'll be well, I need to get a better score. Can you get me a better score? And it's like, well, depends on why you have a bad score. Right, Oh, do you do? You have a bad we had eight fatalities last year and sixteen lost time, makes incidents. Ma'am Man, I can't help you out with that one. I can't. Ye know, that's it. That's it. That's going to fall off with time. Yeah, but if it's because you don't have your documentation in place or you know, little things like that, hey, I can get you up to speed. I can, you know, help you hit that higher number on your score, maybe lower your insurance rate, do all that happy stuff. But it amazes me, I think you know, the people that are just like why I need a better score? You know, because I need to try. I want to work for so and so, but I'm a red. Okay, cool. Why are you a red, though, to begin with, like, I get you want to work for so and so, but you know, how good is your safety program how good is your like like how many accidents or incidence if you had this year? HMM, yeah, so, yeah, I I I've had so many over my career. I've had companies, Hey, I want to take you to lunch. All right, cool, and I because I worked for the company they wanted to work for. Right, yeah, and they thought I was going to be there in and it. They're in the lunch. It's like it's some point it gets brought up and I sit there and I'm like, okay, cool. Well, what's your rating? An ISSN? Well, what's you're rating at PEC or very force or what? Do you need those, you know, and they're like, well, we're in the red. Why? Well, because I'm like, how many infidents have you had? How many lost times have you had? And when you start asking a company those questions, it's kind of like they're going to be quiet and then they're going to try to take you to, you know, out to eat lunch again sometime, but they'll never call you back because you're asking him the hard questions of okay, well, if you're read and you're not attached to us to begin with, why why am I going to put my name, my neck or whatever out there to try to get you in when you're already like behind the aid ball? You got to figure out A, which is your company, first of why this is occurring and then maybe we'll talk little later time. So, yeah, it's, you know, amazing how people want to cut corners and just to kind of makes of work. You know, I think with me. Yeah, I just need an HC manual. It's okay. I'm like, okay, well, what do you need? I don't know. Yeah, where we're read and I send for this. Do you do confined space? Well, we're tink cleaning company, but you don't have a consigned space policy. No, wow, yeah, it's amazing. It's truly truly amazes me, you know, some of the things I come across, which is why I you know, I enjoy talking to people like yourself. You know, they really value safety. You know that's your job, of course, but you really care about the people in your company and making sure that they get home safe at night. And I think absolutely, you know, really the key, like I said, it kind of, I believe. In the beginning, you know, I I saw the reactive side of it, and that's fire an Ms. you know, that's the reactive part. People only call us when stuff's going wrong and and they need help. You know, no matter if it's that your residence, or if it's in a construction site, willing guests, site, excavation whatever. It was one of those things of like, okay, where and where to prevent this me showing up on a fire truck or an ambulance? What's out there that I could freaking contribute to? That would help, not not. You know, nobody's got... make that call, you know, and grant it. You have the mechanical issue. Everything's manmade for the most part. There's nothing really natural out there that than what we're trying to get out of the ground. And then the other part to it is you've got the human factor. If somebody doesn't follow the policy or process whatever, sometimes they will. You still have to do that. Call that number. You know, called nine hundred and eight onew to get people out there or call the safety guy because there was an incident. But I like being proactive, I like building the relationships and and to stop somebody or witness see whatever, a potential hazard and be able to stop the job in a way, not necessarily like Stop Work Authority. Hey, we're all shutting the whole location down, but just that little little spot right there during the day right, yeah, well, who, whoa. What are you doing? A? Explain what you're doing to me. Having people just hey, thought, how you doing it? You know, how's the kids? I'm like, God, they're still knuckleheads. You know, like knowing people that they who have kids, knowing people that have you know, what their passions are and things like that, that you can like again, you know, I believe I've talked about it the first time. You know, having that common ground, that that's that that thing that you can connect with somebody with, you know, is a as a pretty cool thing. And when you're able to do that as a safety professional and not be looked at as a safety cop, it is just going to write you up for whatever. I haven't written anybody up my whole day career. I'll be honest with you. I don't. I don't. I don't believe in that. You know. Now I may make a recommendation at times, but I don't write people up. You know, I don't believe in I don't have a ticket book or any of that kind of stuff. You know what I mean. I can't, can't sit there and give you a ten dollar fine for not wearing your safety glasses, even though I probably would the company would be pretty rich after that. But I'm just kidding. But it's one of those things, like I don't believe being a safety cop. I want to build the relationships. I want to like I said, I can't say it to enough that eighty six thousand four hundred seconds. You know that if my all my guys can go home, and I mean all of them, employees, contractors, etc. If they can go home to their families at the end of the day, then the program the team. You know, when I say team again, I mean everybody that involves with the team, not just the HS group, not just our advisors, my guys in the field, myself or any of that. Saying the whole team, we've done our job. I mean, I really believe that. So awesome. Well, we're just about out of time. We didn't have eight six thousand four hundred and you know seconds today but you know, as usual, really we did have an hour and it was quick. It was fine. Yes, so, you know, just want to wrap it up. Tell everybody had a great time talking to todd today. This has been the safety management show. I have a great day and be safe. In need of a blueprint for workplace safety and compliance. Safety Services Company is North America's leading provider of safety training and compliance solutions. We supply custom safety manuals and policies and onsite and online training solutions that will enhance the safety of your workplace, and our compliance services will save you time and resources, guaranteeing peace of mind. With eighteen years in the industry, we have a proven track record of helping customers achieve better safety outcomes by providing customized solutions that fit the unique needs of each business. To learn Mo more, head to safety services COMPANYCOM. Thanks for listening... the Safety Management Show. To hear more stories from safety leaders, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you enjoyed the show, leave us a rating. Until next time, stay safe.

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