The Safety Management Show
The Safety Management Show

Episode 14 · 1 month ago

Revenue, Relationships, and SOPs - Being a Real EHS Leader w/ Todd Waldron

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Companies that put more emphasis on production and the bottom line will still lose revenue because of employee safety incidents.

Having someone on board who’s passionate about EHS pays its own dividends.

In this episode, Todd Waldron, Environmental Health and Safety Supervisor at Comstock Resources, joins us for a lively conversation about being a truly effective EHS leader.

A combat vet and former Air Force firefighter, Todd has over a decade of industry experience and a highly-trained eye for risk assessment. His insights are spot-on.

We’ll discuss:

  • Establishing top-down safety procedures that actually get followed
  • Building internal relationships and trust to encourage compliance
  • Whether safety reward programs really work
  • Administratively crippling your workforce with overly detailed SOPs
  • Passing the torch

Hear more stories from safety professionals by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or visiting our website. 

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for The Safety Management Show in your favorite podcast player.

You're listening to the SafetyManagement Show where safety professionals share engaging storiesabout their time in the trenches and the hard earned lessons they've learnedalong the way, let's dig in hi. This is Jackson. Welcome to the safetymanagement show. I have the pleasure to day of having Todd Wall. Turning withme, he is the HS supervisor, with comstock resources. Todd you've got areally great background. Your veteran you twenty two years in safety, and Iknow you started your safety career back when you were in the US Air Force.So I'm interested to hear a little bit about how that started. For you andwhat peaks your interest, oh well truth be told to be quite honest. I sixteenyears old, I actually started in public safety, Ban a fire fighter or volunteerfire fighter in my home town, join the air force loved it and with a firefighter in the air force and then became or started doing squad andsafety there helping out the base within the civil engineering group, wetook care of all the road construction electrical I mean anything. CivilEngineering, wise, is what we did, and so learning learning kind of the basicsand having the air force put me through their Afah standards and what not, as far asclasses went. That is how I got into safety and knowing that hey, you know,because of the Shire fighter, your N emsuch n stuff goes wrong and is doingsafety you're more on the proactive end of it. So that's really what Pete myinterest of trying to be proactive, getting people to buy into the policies,procedures and things like that that are out there. So that's where itstarted. I mean it tons of fun. It's been it's Goin a right. It's been aroller coaster ride ever since how cool is that and you're still a volunteerfire fighter right? I do every once in a while when, if it's bad enough, likeusually house fires, I don't really go to much else anymore. So there's a needfor that. You know, I know you're from a small community, so you know I'm surethat they appreciate you having around always good, to have a safety guy onstandby for stuff, like that. Sometimes I don't like that part of it, but where's your PP right, don't go in thehouse without your bunker gear, in a air mas going to tay. It's don't dothat. Don't do that anyway, yeah we're not going to do that. So we talked alittle bit previously about commonly held beliefs that you disagree with,and one of the things that we had discussed was companies referring todirect and indirect cost or Ri. So tell me a little bit about your feeling onthat. Well, I mean it. I feel like that, the companies put more onus on thebottom line and- and when I say the bottom line is like how much this yearare we going to make right and they don't put as much on workers, safety and the the backcountryknow again it like we spoke before it was. You know insurance rates go upwhen you have a lost time or even a recordable or somebody gets hurt on thejob, whatever fatalities, any of those kinds of things, insurance rates go upand I feel like some companies do not see it is that and that they willcontinuously try to push more production production production intoit right instead of what's, why are we losing money what'sgoing on? Why are we you know at the end of the year? We want to make ahundred million, but yet we only made fifty what happened. Well, you had xnumber of incidents and your direct and indirect cost associated and yourinsurance rates, etc, etc. All those things come into play and it'ssomething that I feel like companies need to take a step back and actuallylook at those things, and I think they...

...would actually realize that hey youknow. Safety is a big thing if that is where they're losing you know theirmoney, obviously, but I mean there's several other areas where they could aswell. So I mean kind of take right now. You know inflation and all these otherthings go in line with that cost of goods. A definitely- and you know,speaking of cross of goods, since you mentioned it. Another area that we kindof touched on was companies wanting to spend money on equipment. You know wetalked a little bit about fall pro. You know. I recently did I'm now certifiedfor Falto, which was fun. We have a really cool training center that one ofmy friends has here in town, so it was really great to go, but talk to me alittle bit about you know the the lack of spending when it comes to equipment inareas like fault pro. Well, I mean I'll be honest with you. There's there's aguy that I agree with the once did: JERD jobs. His name is Mike Ro and healways said safety. Third, okay and in all actuality, you know allthe companies that he went and visited oi or businesses or whatever, and theyhad a safety program. You know there was always that one person you knowthere as a crew they're going through this process of you have to wear fallprotection. You have to do this, you need a hard hat safety, glasses, etctype suits whatever it may end up being, but there's always that one employeewith this company that they visited that doesn't have any of that crap onyou know, and so that's why you know and there's some things out there thats written about safety. Third- and you know it just comes back to ownership- Imean really, you know, top down approach, making sure the peopleunderstand if you have a good safety program or EH program, whatever youwant to call it out there. It is, you know a top down approach from theCEO to the VPS to the managers to the supervisors, to the lowest dude. That'sbeen there for a week right and to have somebody that actually speaks aboutthose things and that's passionate about it. You know it and I think itplays its own dividends. And then you have people that understand that heyman, they actually care about me. So anyway, yeah carrying is, you know,definitely important, and we look to our leadership to be our leaders.That's why we call him that and if they don't buy into the whole safety program,I find that you know employees are less likely to do so as well, but not onlyyou know top level management, but your day to day I supervisors that, are, youknow, covering a crew for the day, if they're just worried about productionand not worried about their employee safety. That can definitely make adifference in the people view it in Oilean gas. I sayit quite often when a supervisor will show up on location and yeah he's gothis Heller had on his a fors, whatever body will walk out and be with the guysthat have zero safety glasses, I mean it's still. A policy is still requiredby you know every olden gas operator it in their own policies that they wearthese things or they're. Turning a wrench without having gloves on youknow, they're standing in a pinch, pinch point area or a line of fire area,and it's like your supervisor. What are you doing? You know, and sometimes youhave to correct those things and the guys are looking at you. What are you?What are you doing? You know I mean: do you care about your own safety? Youknow is really when it comes down to it so yeah, and you know that kind ofcircles back to another area, that we discussed the the policy procedureprocess right and- and you mentioned that you know it kind of- gets peopleover think it. You know what are you, what are your ideas when it comes to not over thinking those three areas, sowhat works in the field? First before I would say, just just throwing somethingout there as a nee jerk reaction, you...

...know with with every policy or aprocedure process fop, whatever people want to call it right. There are alwaysI'm about going to say repercussions, but there could be potentialrepercussions to what they put black and white on a piece of paper, and hereit lies. The other thing, too is: Is Your company really going to followwhat you're putting on paper or you just checking a box? You know there'sseveral times when I've done investigations when incidents occurredand like cool. Let me see your policy on this and they'll show it to me, and it'slike you know your guys aren't doing half of this stuff and they're like no. They are I'm likeno they're, not I've been watching them for, like you know, I've seen this I'veseen that this isn't you know they're not doing this, and you can kind of you know knit pick it a little bit, butat the same time, if you're going to have a policy, make sure it's somethingthat you yourself is a manage, managementteam is going to follow and your employees lower down the food chain aregoing to follow, yeah definitely comes into place, and then you knowincorporated with that is the whole. You know procedure and process. So whenit comes to rolling things like that out to your teams, you know, what doyou think is the best way to do that. Yet by and if you have a guy, that'sbeen in your in your in your company for fifteen heck five years. You knowit is really good who runs a good crew, maybe he's one to like, not necessarilya supervisor but a lead guy right get his by in and get his his take on.What's trying to roll out, obviously, when it comes to oseae right, those arepretty cut and dry. You know you follow you. Nineteen, ten R, O thousand ninehundred and twenty six standard, depending on the industry that you'reworking in M, but there's a way for companies to actually implement those correctly again to get by and from thelead people that are out there with the workers, even supervisors. And then yougo to managers et ce kind of, follow it back up and hey. Does this? Does thisapply? Is this applicable to what we're trying to get done or there any hazardsthat you see with how we're writing this? Because again, it's black andwhite and if something bad happens and ocean has to come in and do aninvestigation? Guess what were you following? What you had on paper, yesor no- and that's basically where it is and and I've seen several times in mycareer, where it's not nice, of a fine when you have it on paper and it's not beingfollowed by the individuals out there. So it's you got to know how toimplement it. You got to know how to get the buy in to where the supervisioncan actually take hold and make sure the guys are doing what they need. Yeah,big, that's a big factor in the fine. You know, I see him every day. You knowwhere people have stuff written but they're, not following it, and then youknow. We all know that the ocean likes to revisit places that they find Ohyeah. There was just recently an incident that I read about. Some peoplewere killed and they had been to that site multiple times and the companykept changing its name in order to avoid they would pria,bankrupt, Cyne and then open and under another name or just shut down thebusiness and open an under another name. They held the owners personally liable.Finally, after wilful and negligent Yep Yep, it is it's crazy. The links peoplewill go to to you know, have something written and think that it that's goodenough yeah, it's really not so a little more I'm buying. So you knowit's great that you have management...

...putting in these policies andprocedures and all this stuff in place, but if they don't believe in it, youknow from from the top down. It definitely affects everybody along theway. What a way you think safety professionals could go about gettingbuying from management, it starts with building the relationships, and I seeit and often times a lot. You know, especially in my industry, that youknow, there's tons of safety cops out there and I don't believe in being thatGuy Right. I believe that there is a way to work within the policy workwithin MOSIA standards etc, where we still get the job done and sometimeslive in the gray area. Right, that's how I get kind of the by and sometimesout in the field. Now, when you're trying to talk to management about ithere in probably the last five to seven years, I have seen moremanagers support the HS programs and it wasn't that way when I first got in theoil and gas industry, and- and you know you had the good ol boy system andthings along that line- and this is how we've always done it- Blah Blah Blahyou're, just a safety guy basically be sit in the corner and color. Now it'swe actually have. You know a voice right of what should happen in a sense, it's notjust upper management making the policies they actually listen to us,but in turn we can take those to the field level guys and go hey. Does thiswork? Yes or no again, it kind of goes back to the bay and on that, so I thinkthat with everything these days, t the knowing and wilful part you werespeaking of earlier and then culpability. You know liabilitieslawyers, everybody wants to sue everybody, youknow so there's an injury or something happens. You know it kind of goes tothat, but ultimately having the buyin of management and building thoserelationships and like I don't know everything I know I don't knoweverything, but I'm willing to tell a manager hey. What are you talking aboutand like? Can you help me understand it better, because I think if you're able to kindof be humble in your knowledge, it actually helps you out later down theline of okay. So I know this because I'm the HS guy, but I don't know what you guys do inthis particular instance- tell me what it is. We had an issue I want tounderstand more and we come to kind of a commonagreement of okay. This is how corrective action should be made. Ithelps me out. I mean it really. Does I mean kind of being s being humble andasking questions I mean, that's, I think how I've I've been able to builda relationships in the trust within my management, then Nice, Nice- and youknow that kind of brings me to the the other portion. You know we talked aboutbuying for management, but we also talked a little bit about. You knowsomething that you've been trying to do better and we talked about being visualin appearance by management and how that boost morale. So tell me a littlebit about that. Everybody used to do safety bonuses and it was always a good thing. Youknow everybody like hell, yeah we're going to get a safety bonus. If we dothis, but we're not going to report this because then we lose our safetybonus. You know I to me: I use it. I've used this several times.Eighty six thousand four hundred seconds or in a day really in a twelvein a twelve hour period that the guys are working right, there's half of that.Eighty, six thousand four hundred okay,...

...the reward in my opinion, is if theyshow up with these and they leave with these and everything is in place andthey go home to their kids, their wife, their families. Whatever that's to me,is the biggest Dang reward that anybody could ask for. You know. So that'sthat's kind of my take on that. One: Okay: okay, yeah, you know the wholereward for safety thing. Just like blows my mind. Sometimes it just youknow we're going to pay you to be safe when going home safe should be you know,and that should be the ultimate go right. We all want to go yeah, you know, and it goes back to that.Eighty six thousand, four hundred, I mean you take one of those seconds andyou make the wrong decision against the policy precedure process o p orwhatever you got. Guess what you come out. You know fingerless or you comeout with your eye. You, you know you got to be taken to the hospital becauseyou freaking poked your eye out with something or you know, God forbid.Somebody from the company you know is not going on your wife's door andsaying hey. We made the he made the wrong call today he's not coming back, you know I mean, and it really takes ittakes fractions of seconds. I mean in oil. An guys I mean pressure isprobably the it's kind of how I want to say silentkiller, but in a way it kind of is because if you don't check and makesure stuff's bled off, I mean two three, four five PSI behind a needle valvethat blows out or or a little fitting, or something like that. I mean it'skind of like a bullet. You know it's going through you, so I think really atthe end of the day, if people got to realize that you know safety, safetyreward programs are good, but it there's a better. I think,there's a better way to justify how you gauge those bonuses, thosemoneys or whatever the case is so you know, I mean again it going home at the end of the day, withthe way you came out going and hugging your kids, when you're done with thetwelve hour shift fourteen days whatever it is right, I think that'sthe to me. That's the that's the ultimate holy crap. I did what I neededto do. I followed what I needed to follow and I'm back home. I've mademoney for my family. I can buy him an Iphone, I can buy them. You know pay mybills for what you know yeah so yeah. Definitely you know getting home safeand sound and making sure the guy. Next to you goes home, safe and sound. IsYou know really what it should be about, so that kind of brings me to our nextquestion. So we talked a little bit last time abouta failure that you've experienced that you think a lot of folks are headed forwhen it comes to safety. You know what do you get on that I mean that theprevious question in this one I think, go in line with each other. To behonest with you, I mean it. Does the safety bonuses, the I mean everybodywants money, don't give me wrong and if you can do it in a safe manner, you'renot cutting corners. Great Okay programs, like that, you know I'm kindof in a way going to contradict myself, because programs can work that way if they're done and managedappropriately. I there have been several companies. I'veknown have known that. Do these bonus programs and it ends up biting them in the butt,because a lot of stuff's happening in the field level right working in thefield and it's not being reported, and then the guy goes into the hospitalinto the you know, clinic or whatever hospital or his PC p. The day of e nowhe's got an infection in his finger.

Well, how did you do that? Well, I didit on location. Is Such an Sich o? Why didn't you report it? Well, I wanted mysafety bonus. Well now the dudes losing his finger.So there's things like that that I feel if they're managed it the right way andthere's not, I don't want to say punishment because you've had you haveto have that gauge there. That's one of the areas where I feel like it's headed, probably toward the wrongdirection, but on the other hand I mean I've seen we mentioned policies and procedures. That's you know. I've seen I've seen sops more than I have seen apolicy fops and like procedures, right,standard operating processes and stuff that have hindered people to the extent that ittakes literally thirty minutes to do a five minute job. There are severalcompanies out there that you have to have this done this done this done. You know eighteen steps of whatever,before the guys actually can ever a turn a rich, and I don't think that'sright. You know you're over over administratively crippling yourworkforce. Okay, yeah I've spoken with a fewpeople that are at companies like that you know, and they have these fancytablets that you know tell them. Oh we this position this, which has itsbenefits. You know I mean like if you're going up three stories on aladder, you want to make sure it's position properly and tied off properlyand all that good stuff. But you know, I think sometimes they can be a littleextreme in their directive. So definitely withthat. So let's talk about things that people aren't using correctly orto the fullest. You know we talked a little bit aboutcomputer based training. I know you've got some opinions and feelings on that.So let's go there. Oh, this is the one question I was hopingyou weren't going to you're going to skip over A. I like that. I, like I, like CD TRAIN IT C B. T train computer base.Training is only as good as the program that is there right. There's severalcomputer based training software systems program whatever in this dayand age, and it does hit on the regulatory standards with in eithernineteen ten or twenty six, whichever and they're, usually pretty good, but the individuals are there clicking abutton? You know and that's really all it isbecause you can literally have a safety meeting these same exact months or amonth later or a couple months later, of the exact same C bt. That happenedsay a couple of months prior and ask questions and nobody knows the answer. They werejust sitting there clicking the mouse to try to just okay. I got to spendthirty minutes sitting in front of the computer leapt right, but is acondition of employment, so they do it. So that's one area where I feel likeisn't really used correctly and I don't know what the is kind of like. I toldyou the first time when you talked you know, I don't know what the correct wayis. I really don't it's good to be competent, you know, hey, I can click amouse. I know what what what a osea standard for excavation is or riggingor any of these other things. But you know really. It is what it is. Imean you're clicking a mouse now,...

...a tool like we. We have a hot card program,it's kind of behavior base safety, basically, and I feel like companies that have a B BS program.Don't there are companies that I've seen that don't don't use it to the fullest potential of what itshould be. I like actually behavior base safety programs and the best wayfor that I've presented to my guys and stuff in the field and to get the by inthe understanding is like hey. It's not a tattletale tool like I don't carewhat Johnny did yesterday or what you heard through the grape vine or any ofthat kind of stuff. It's work related. It is, you know we have a. We have ablock on there for like exceptional safety like if there's four crewsworking together, they had a j say they had all their PPE. They, you know goodcommunication with whatever it was, etc, etc. Nobody was in line offire pinchpoints et ce. You know, exceptional safety, man write it up. Let us knowlike good things are happening out there. It's not just a negative toolright and then there is. We have a one side, that's near myth or hazard ID that they hadnoticed and then, but how did you control? It is the bottom box, theright hand, side of ours, agains the behavior base safety portion of it and when it comes down to it, those those Ifeel like are used more to tattle on Johnny than it is to, because I don'tlike him, because he looked at me funny two days ago when I was digging a hole or somethingright. You know, and I I've always presentedhis guys. I don't I don't want you to tell a long people there in the likeyour name like the person. Turning it in is the only name on the card period.You know to get our derling department to do it to get the completionsdepartment to get in line to do it, the production, guys etc, and for like,basically, you know the field side of the house to be in line and to turn inreally good stuff. Like I always tell him, I want quality over quality. Iwant to know like Hey, I stopped the dude from freaking getting crushed by afork. Lift yesterday like to me that's quality. You knowwhen you're writing a hazard ID out. I was watching the wireline guys theywere lifting up the liver cater one guy was standing underneath the Lubecae Wosis being lifted, no tag line, etc, etc. You know, okay, cool great, you put a behavior onthere and then how did you correct it? What coaching did you provide? How whatkind of feedback was there and conversation? So I think you knowBehavior Bay safety, there's two parts about that. It can be used reallyreally bad and then it can be reused in a very good way to where it can drive incident rate down andI've seen it. I mean I've seen it across. I mean you're going to haveyour mechanical failures. You can have your human airs and things like that,but they're a lot less than initially there were right before the program wasrolled out. So that's one area that I feel very passionate about his behaviorbay safety because myself, the HS group. We can't be on everylocation at adn't given time, so it kind of gives that ownership to wellsite supervisors to production, guys you know Drillin, superintendents, drillin formand etc. To write these up as they see them or to correct it themselves, Imean, even if it's like can't let's say it's a slow week andhe's walking the rig and okay there's pawaws and hose all Jingle Jangle. Asthe you know, foot of the stairway you know I picked it up, moved it out ofthe way I had a conversation with the motorman or forehand or whatever. If,like Hey, don't do that again, you know...

...so I've seen all kinds of stuff and alot of them have been quality stuff. I mean, like I said it, even even if it may sound minute, but apower washer. You know nozzle and hose and everything else at the foot of thestairs. It's your descending and let's say it's at night. You knowyou could be in a bond real, quick. You trip through that. So anyhow, I mean, even though it seemssmall, it is still a hazard ad that was noticed, recognized and corrected. Soand that's what it's all about right, you know you don't want to hear thatthat billy didn't have his safety. God goes on yesterday. You are right, I'mtelling you. I could write that up a hundred times a day, I'll be honestwith you, and it was funny because I just had a conversation with someonewho's in the construction side of oil and gas right, and he was tell me abouthow they have the the carts you know and they stopped making it mandatory,but they had to fill them out right because everybody was writing. Theywere getting. You know twenty cards a day. That said you know, billy didn'thave his his glasses on and Johnny didn't have his gloves on and that'sall they all said so the they changed, how they were doing things and wentwith the quality and so they're actually offering there. I don't wantto call it an incentive or bonus or whatever, but you know, if you turn ina quality card, it has. You know some value to it, something that may theycould use in a safety meeting somewhere things like that. Then they get putinto like a raffle right, it's to get quality out of people and by not makingit mandatory, and you know I'm not making it mandatory and I'm not payingyou to do it. I really want to know what's going on on my site, so you knowthat he had a pretty similar. You know story as to what you were saying and ascheery as it is, I mean with what I do I mean I had some Fr shirts made upthat has bar logo on it. You know with a pocket. You know everybody says youknow, t shirts, a cool with a pocket. I don't know why, but whatever putyourself phone minute, I guess, but you know the guys appreciate. I mean, eventhough it's something like it's, you know I'm not giving a fifty dollar giftcard, I'm just giving them an FR C shirt. That's got the company logo or aball cap, or something like that. I mean hey man. I read your card the other day.Oh, you actually read those I'm like yeah. I read everyone that comes acrossmy computer, it doesn't matter if it's drilling completions productionconstruction. You Know Hey. I was at the House and I saw this at the gym andthey write them up. I mean, like I, I mean it's cool to see the the the byend, that's happening with the program and, like I said, the quality of thecords on locations and even at the House, I had one the other day that wasactually really really cool and, and it was it was you know I was athome and this is what happened and I was read through it and I'm sittingthere like man, they do listen, yeah, they do pay attention to the safetymeetings and stuff, so they do and it's funny you know my roommate works for amajor manufacturer of consumer goods and she's part of their Ert team, and you know she's on their safetycommittee and she'll come home like she'll, have had a meeting, and sheknows that you know like I have. I have some. You know a couple of initials anda surer to and she'll be like he we talked about. You know lockout tag outtoday and I'm like really and she's like yeah. I got these locks and I'mlike well, I had that Okai. I said you...

...know, that's a training that I offerright and she's like well. What do you mean it to training? It's not like thethat big of a deal and I'm like. Well, it is you know absolutely you just shutthe machine off and I'm like. No you. It has to be de energized and there'sall these other things and she's like really. I didn't know that like because when they shut something off itshuts down the entire line. So it's a little bit different. She didn'trealize that it wasn't like that in every industry or or at all companies.So you know it's funny how things come up when you're at home. You know our fridge went out and she was like doI need to de Energize it and I'm my gods. You know you're roll row throllit out and I'm plug it from the wall. She got you was being slick with thatone. So right it was funny. You know one of the cool things that we talkedabout, that I think it's important to discuss and and just to kind of bringit to the forefront is something that you talked about with retired peoplecoming in and and having a relationship, a company having a relationship with aperson, that's retired, and what they can bring to the table, even thoughthey're retired. So you know I want to hear more about that. So what brought that conversation on thelast time we spoke was that my boss, it when I was at a previous companyactually now works with works. For me, it's kind of a crazy role, and it wasone that I didn't know quite how to manage when I first started it to bequite honest other than the fact that I knew that his wife was tired of himsitting at the House and fishing all the time. So I had, I had to kind ofgive him something to do, but he's like you know, there's the there's qualitypeople that have worked within any industry that do retire. Some of themdon't want to ever think about it again right and I get that and then there'sothers that are genuinely genuinely. I think miss it, no matterif it's a retired person or somebody that got promoted to a different in adifferent company or any of those kinds of things, but keeping thoserelationships open. I feel like not just within the ENVERMEU of safetyindustry side of things, but is a company in a whole because there's alot of valuable information there and since we last spoke, we had one of ourmanagers pass and a wealth of knowledge went with that. You know, and- andthose are unfortunate things that occur and- and you know it tears me up thinking about thethings that that he knew the conversations that we had and thingsalong that line and knowing that daying. I wish I would have spent justa couple more hours in his office this day or that day or what not you know,but as far as like retiredpeople go and the ones that have moved to othercompanies, no matter if they retired or not, they could be promoted to amanager or VP or whatever the case is. But if you have those relationships andthings come up that you know sometimes is you know the whole smell test. Youknow this, just don't really smell right. You know, I mean, let me callsomebody that has a zero knowledge of what's going on. Let me describe it towhat you know to them. What's going on what's happening, etc and see if whatI'm thinking they, you know till get the same idea right or I my like way outside the box withwhatever's going on so there's there's a lot of knowledgethere I mean there really is for the for the older generation to pass eminto the younger guys, see that more and more nowadays than originally againearlier in my career when it was a good old boy system and they're like you gotto learn on your own Pana, you know you...

...got to call for you walk, and then yougot to do this this this and then you're going to end up without a finger,and it's like okay. Well, that's not really the right way to do things,because why should somebody have to lose a limb? You know so, but I see the older generation nowadaysactually wanting to teach and educate the the younger guys and it's and it'scool, even the Middle Guy. I mean like not somebody, that's like a lead guy,but, like somebody has seasoned, you know been there. While you know therethere they're like Linden hands and not I mean granted, there are some thatdon't do it at all, but I think you're going to have that anywhere. I mean Ihad it in heart apartment to be honest with you and it was like a you. You gotto get your lumps before you can kind of understand anything, so I onlyretired people really do benefit the younger guys and the education that'sgoing to one out there and as long as they're willing to soak itin that's the other part. If they don't care or they have that you know just abad attitude or whatever I mean you always can tell the ones that want toknow compared to the ones that I'm just here for a pay check so yeah. I think it's like that. You know, likeyou, said anywhere, there's so much to be knowledge to be shared, and you knowI'm a big proponent of you can't keep it unless you give it away and- and soyou know I have- I save everything that anybodythat was here before me is sent to me. My Desk tops a mess, but it's full ofreally cool stuff that people just coming in don't have right, becausepeople aren't sharing it anymore, and you know it's nice to be able to sharethe information that you have help. Somebody come up a little bit along theway, and you know all that kind of thing, but you know I learned from thepeople that were here before me. So definitely you know that's a big thing.Ships with that! That's a big thing. I mean I remember things and I still havea few of them from when I broke out offshore, and you know it was bad. He was a navy. Hewas an ex navy guy retired and you know again it was like I'm just I'm here and he's like yeah.Your first hit she's like this yer first, twenty eight days out O heregives way. This is what I want you to do, sit down and just pay attention anda listen. Don't don't reinvent the wheel, youknow I'll walk you through everything you need to know, but don't reinvent the wheel. Just sitdown and pay attention build. Your relationships first and I was like okay,I can do that. I can talk to people, I walk around and just be bop aroundright, and then I started doing the the theaudits and the things that got me more familiar with the hazard areas andthings like that and as I went through and the longer I was there, the guys Icould see them. Instead of He's a Les Site Guy Man stay away from him, it waslike okay, we can trust him. You know to help us out if we need it when weneed it etc. So it's the older guys. I mean when I'm telling you it's crazy.When you see somebody with thirty years experience in an industry with a zerodegree that is made it to be a superintendent or or even a manager.Okay, and then you have individuals that have fifteen years experience whopaid attention to a lot of things and they're like a VP of operations andI've seen so many different levels. I mean I've seen guys with degrees thatjust tank you know and then they're out there. You know turning a ranchsomewhere and I've seen guys that have degrees and that you know excel andbecome Vice President Al Operations. You know s and those are the guys onboth sides, educated in the field and...

...educated in the classroom. They bothknow what the industry been where it's going, the matter if one's here and onegets to hear vice versa. Whatever the case is it's their knowledge, ifthey're able to collaborate together, their knowledge helps out the companyin a whole. Yeah collaboration is definitely a big key. I think today you know everybody kind of tendsto go online and Google everything and you know, try and try and like that'sthe answer to the world, you know I'm pretty sure I had a dictionary and youknow the neighbor next door or my grandma, or you know somebody that Igot knowledge from and sometimes I think, there's more to be said for thatthan you know being able to. You know, get a degree and and just walk out andgo. You know I M, I know Wot, it is yes, okay, you know it all. What are yougoing to do with it yeah? What are you going to do when this happened so yeah?Absolutely, you know experience as a key having relationships with other inthe EH S. professional do not pay attention to whatever wikipedia says Ihad somebody do that to me one time and I call them out on it. Don't do it towhoever is listening out there these days, if you're, even paying attention,don't use wikipedia to try to prove something, or is that even still athing as of as I be about six months ago, yeah, apparently it is so anyway,that's crazy, because I'm pretty sure I could go in and change information inWikipedia. So you know that might be fun to do oneday, just for kicks and giggles throw it o thrown random stuff andpeople yeah Walmart. I mean right o somebody cites that in a freakingincident report, you're like a you thinking anyway. So, what's a recent thing that you've tried at your company thatyou were surprised by the results of honestly, I think I mean it really kindof goes back to when we ruled the BS program out. You know not puttingnumbers in a quota on on. What's going on out there. Instead of you know each manager I'll say it this way, eachmanager put a quota themselves on their guys. Okay, the safety, the EH s department did notI again when this first rolled out. I wanted quality and even with a quota,no lie even with a quota of one a week, however long your working whatever okay,some of that, like the drilling guys there on fourteen fourteen schedule,the completions guys they're kind of sporadic but quality cords, I see morequality cords from our operations than I ever could have. Like initially thought I mean I ll justbe honest with you, I mean you do end up kind of getting the crazy ones everyonce in a while that are like crap. I have a turn one in. I need towrite something up real fast. It's like saw a truck driver without hard head toput it on a like. Okay, that all right, I get it, but I mean for the most part out of outof for every one of those I'll say it this way for every one of those orsafety glasses. You know hot card for every one of those. I have at leastfive quality cards, and so you know to me that that that's and that's what Ipreach to the guys when they asked me about when they ask me about thosethings. What what can I can? I can I write a hotcard on this. You know sometimes they'll be like hey, I'm going to writea hot card on this, I'm like dude, I'm already doing an incident report likeyou can't it's already happened. There...

...was no prevention. Yes, you can write abehavior because it was human error or whatever I was like, but you can't doit, I'm already going to put it in the system as an incident. So No, no! No! Iwell man, you know you kind of get the guys that Jack with you about that, butI think that's. The part that I like tois that they're able to ask those questions whenever I'm in the field orrecalled me and ask me email me whatever you know, I've had guys textme before and be like hey man. I saw this happen. I don't know if it's a hotcord, where would it fall and I'm like and I'll call them and be like okay?What did you see because what they text me like perception is like myperception in your perception or two totally different things right. So if Isee something and it's perceived as a hazard, but you don't see it that way,then it's like okay, let's discuss it, let's figure out was it a hazard? Wasit behavior? You know those kinds of things so I but like I said, I reallythink that the bbis program and having those open lines of communication withall all the field you know, like I said, production, completions construction,drilling everything out there having that has been very it's been good. I mean, like I said,the or incident rates have going down and that's a it's a positive thing. Youknow so then, like I said no matter, if I'm painting on a freaking ball cap- or you know an fur shirt so and that kindof ties in you know to another question, something that you and your team havedone recently, that you've achieved that you're really proud of- and I knowyou just mentioned some low incident rate. So what's that look like yeah, wehave low incident rates, I mean. Obviously we have several contractorsout there that work for our company is third party orprimaries or what not and they are employees and a whole, and I thinkright now we're like in a point five seven, I think or a point fourseven should have had that number. My Bad, I think we're four point: four sevenfor the year, so you know, isn't a rate, you know, drivethe insurance rates, it kind of goes. This kind of all can tie in together,really when it comes down to it. You know when we're able to keep theindirect costs in the direct cost low for company our size and keep ourincident rates low for a company ourselves, the insurance rates andthings kind of that people in companies only see you know during the ax part ofthings right that for me, I feel like it speaks volumesfor what a good hs group can accomplish and can do a AV granted. You know,we've talked all about a lot of safety. We also have to deal with theenvironmental things inside the ollinges room, but that's kind of another. You know that that's awhole another section of the world that I don't want to get into to be quitehonest with, so I really love safety, but having again it just everything Ithink correlates all back to that. That portion of the you know the evidence,the insurance, the direct and direct and, if you're, able to keep youremployees safe right now, how do you do that? Well, you again, it goes backinto buying right, so it has them to think about those. Eighty six thousandfour hundred seconds you know holy crap. If I do this, Ididn't Oh, I didn't. I didn't shut that valve over there. Okay in you go shutthat vow before I do this, because I may end up jacking myself up, you know,so I think, as a team, we've done a really really great job, and I meanfrom you know and when I say a team-...

I'm not just talking about our HS team, I'm talking about from the COO vp themanagers across the operations, the engineers across that and everythingtrickling down eh s for me is just a part of that whole big old umbrella soand again, having the buy in from the Clo down has really really helped. Ithink drive a lot of our rates and drive a lot of the costs thatassociated with that down. Now, I'm just a small guy on the totem pool, so I may be completely talking out ofmy rarete when I say that, but I would like to think that with the commitmentand things I've seen in the conversations I've seen across thesethese levels of within our company of the management side, I would like tosay that you know we we are doing what we should be doingacross the entire team and then within our little nature, just stuff nice nice.So you did mention you know you guys work with some third party and you havesome contractors. How does communicating the level of safety thatyour company values trickle down to those other companies that do stuff foryou? What's that relationship with like I'll say this that one of oursuperintendents is put it to me like this. If they came work with safety,they can't work with for us. He stands behind that. You know if I can't get it taken care of kind of behind thescenes he he wants to know. You know he wants to know they either the individual is no longer onlocation. The super somebody there's got to be some kind of hey. I, this isour expectation. Here's our! We want your commitment, but if you can't do itsee later- and that goes with the drill and say to I've, seen it on that side as well a few times neverreally been stated in the light you know is previously mentioned, but ifthey can't safely do a job and things continuously mess up or theycontinuously hurt their employees or things like that, I mean they don't that's. That's pretty much shows methat the commitment from the managers that run those areas how committed theyare to getting you know two companies to getting to companies that can do it.You know, and it will do it and obviously there's always that costdifferential in there of like okay, we were paying X Y Z, this amount of money.Well, we want to bring in Lamento p right, but about five grand more a day. Can wemake it happen? Let's see if they're safer, let's see if through this we'llsee if their operations better- and I have seen where XYZ basically just got cut, becausethis company, even though they're five grand a day better or more excuse me,okay, they're, actually doing a really goodjob, they're, actually cutting costs. Ultimately, by how efficient they arewith a personnel that they have so sometimes the bottom of the barrel isnot always the greatest thing, sometimes the middle of the road guy.You know the middle of the Road Company is the one you kind of want to look atbecause they have better quality people. You're you're right- and you know we doso. I deal with a lot of oil and gas. People are construction as well, butone of the things that that I handle is pequin accounts right. So your is ensof that Verfour's, all those crazy...

...people that you know we all go to work through right. So you know we'll have people and andthey'll be well. I need to get a better score. Can you get me a better scoreand it's like well depends on why you have a bad score? We do you. Do youhave a bad? We have a face alities last year and sixteen lost time. I incidentsman, man. I can't help you out with out one. I can't you know, that's a that's.Gonna fall off with time yeah, but if it's because you don't have yourdocumentation in place or you know little things like that, hey I can getyou up to speed. I can you know help you hit that higher number on yourscore, maybe lower your insurance rate. Do all that happy sunglint! It amazesme. I think you know the people that are just like why I need a better score.You know, because I need I want to work for so, and so, butI'm a red, okay, cool. Why are you a red, though, to begin with, like I get,you want to work for so, and so, but you know how good is your safetyprogram? How good is your like, like how many accidents or incidents haveyou had this year M so yeah? I I've had so many over mycareer. I've had companies hey, I want to take you to lunch all right cool andI because I worked for the company. They wanted to work for right yeah andthey thought I was going to be there in and it there in the lunch it's like atsome point. It gets brought up and I sit there and I'm like okay cool well,what's your rating in Ifni? What's your rating at Pec or Vereor, or we anythose you know they're like well we're in the red! Why? Well, because I'm like how many incidents have youhad how many lost times have you had and when you start asking his companythose questions, it's kind of like they're, going to be quiet and thenthey're going to try to take you to you know out to eat lunch again sometime,but they'll. Never call you back because you're asking them the hardquestions of okay. Well, if you're rid and you're not attachedto us to begin with, why? Why am I going to put my name my neckor whatever out there, to try to get you in when you're? Already like behind the eightball, you got to figure out a which is your company first of why this isoccurring, and then maybe we'll talk it a later time so yeah. It's know, amazing how peoplewant to cut corners and just to kind of make stuff work. You Know Oly with itYeah. I just need to each s manual, it's okay and I'm like okay. Well, whatdo you need yeah we were reading in for this. Doyou do confine space? WELL WE'RE A tank cleaning company, but you don't have a confined spacepolicy, no wow yeah! It's amazing! It's truly trulyamazes me. You know some of the things I come across, which is why I I youknow I enjoy talking to people like yourself. You know they really valuesafety. You know that's your job, of course,but you really care about the people in your company and making sure that theyget home safe at night, and I absolutely you know really the key like I said itkind of I believe in the beginning. You know I I saw the reactive side of itand that's fire INS. You know, that's thereactive part. People only call us when stuff's goingwrong and- and they need help- you know no matter if it's at your residence orif it's in a construction site will and guess a excavation whatever. It was one ofthose things of like okay, we're in we're to prevent this me showing up on a firetruck or an ambulance. What's out there that I could freakingcontribute to. That would help.

Not Not you know, nobody's got to makethat call. You know and grated. You have the mechanicalissue. Everything is man made for the most part. There's nothing reallynatural out there that in what we're trying to get out of the ground- andthen the other part to it is you've got the human factor. If somebody doesn'tfollow the policy or process whatever, sometimes they will, you still have todo that. Call that number you know, call nine undred one to get people outthere or called a safety guy, because there was an incident, but I like being proactive. I like buildingthe relationships and to stop somebody or witness, see whatevera potential hazard and be able to stop the job in a way, not necessarily likeStop Work Authority, hey we're all shitting the whole location down, butjust that little the little spot right there during the day right you well who?What? What are you doing? Explain what you're doing to me having people justhey, tod, how you doing you know how's the kids, I'm like,there's still knuckle heads. You know I knowing people who have kids, knowingpeople that have you know what their passions are and things likethat that you can like again. You know, I believe I've talked about it. Thefirst time you know having that common ground. That's that that thing that youcan connect with somebody with you know is a is a pretty cool thing and when you'reable to do that as a safety professional and not belooked at as a safety cop, that is just going to write you up for whatever Ihaven't written anybody up in my whole Dang career, I'll, be honest with you,I don't I don't. I don't believe in that you know now. I may make arecommendation at times, but I don't write people up. You know I don'tbelieve in. I don't have a ticket book or any of that kind of stuff. You knowwhat I mean. I can't I can't sit there and give you a ten dollar fine for notwearing your safety glasses, even though I probably would the companywould be pretty rich after that, but I'm just kidding, but it's one of thosethings like I, I don't believe in being a safety cap. I want to build therelationships I want to like. I said I can't say it enough. Eighty sixthousand four hundred seconds. You know that if all my guys can go home- and Imean all of them- employees contractors et ce if they can go home to theirfamilies. At the end of the day, then the program, the team- you know when I say team again I meaneverybody that involves with the team, not just the HS group, not just ouradvisors, my guys in the field myself or any of that I than the whole team we've done our job. I mean. I reallybelieve that so awesome well we're just about out of time. We didn't have a exthousand four hundred. You know I seconds today, but you know, as you SalHavel, we did have an hour anyway, quick. It was fine. Yes, so you knowjust want to wrap it up. Tell everybody had a great time talking to tod. Todaythis has been the safety management show. I have a great day and be safe in need of a blue print for workplacesafety and Compliance Safety Services. Company is North America's leadingprovider of safety, training and compliant solutions. We supply customsafety, manials and policies and on sight and online training solution thatwill enhance the safety of your workplace and our compliance serviceswill save you time and resources guaranteeing peace of mind witheighteen years in the industry we have a proven track record of helpingcustomers achieve better, save the outcomes by providing customizesolutions that fit the unique needs of each business to learn more had tosafety services. Company...

...thanks for listening to the safetymanagement, show to hear more stories from safety leaders subscribe to theshow in your favorite podcast player. If you enjoyed the show, leave us arating until next time stay safe, T.

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