The Safety Management Show
The Safety Management Show

Episode 1 · 1 year ago

Compliance Is Not the Same as Safety

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

When you work as a safety professional, one of the more frustrating attitudes you run into is that people confuse compliance with safety.


Compliance is not synonymous with safety.


Just ask James Tait, who, in his role as Corporate Safety Director at Schetter Electric, runs into this attitude — and helps guide others past it — every day.


James joins us as our first guest to discuss:

- The difference between safety and compliance

- What he’s learned interacting with OSHA

- How gamification can improve safety and make it fun at the same time

Hear more stories from safety professionals by subscribing in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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You're listening to the Safety Management Show, for safety professional share engaging stories about their time in the trenches and the hard earned lessons they've learned along the way. Let's dig in. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Safety Management Show. I'm your host, Mike Dean, and today we have a very special guess I want to introduce. He is a been in a safety field for well over a decade and been married for thirty seven years. He's a proud father and grandfather. He's a safety director for shatter lectured. Introducing today James Tate. James, how are you today? I'll fine. Think doing very well, Mike. How's the morning going so far? For it, I think I'm pretty good. Kind of slow. Yeah, slow, it's good, right. Yeah, just to be in right. How's work man? You've been working harder, hardly, work power, working hard, saying busy, trying to warm up a little bit, but not too bad. So I know we got some awesome some questions we're going to get into and before we get into, you know, Talk Shop, I want to get into some family stuff and what's up something that your family was say about you. You know, if you could give us one thing. Oh boy, kind of maybe outspoken, if you will I say busy. You know, you know talk about my hobbies and different things that I do working on cars, and you know you have any favorite cars or any particular projects you're working on? Yeah, right now I have a sixty three triumph them getting put back together. It's in good shape body wise everything. I just have to do the suspension drive train, all the stuff that was rubber and plastic is I'll being you know, it's been sitting for twenty six years inside, but it's it's it looks good. It's just not running yet. So getting it to the safety how does you get into the safety field? But what brought you to safety? Yeah, kind of it kind of goes way back to the quite early s. You know, I got into working a head an employer. We worked and they created a safety response team, if you will, for the for the site, and got into that and that kind of started learning the safety side of it by being a become an emt at the site and then kind of moved on from there. Then back was until probably two thousand that two thousand and six, when I had offered to from another employer, like back in the electric field to send me to schools and training to become a safety manager at that time and I had some experience with the early two thousand, with Fire Department, Volunteer Party Department, Seacolera and the safety aspect there of you know how to survive, how to take care of your fellow workers or your your people, if you will, and so kind of rolled into that and then I just kind of through my background. I was just new office was created here in Sacramento and it was it was a good move for me. It was different. It was kind of pressure, nerve racking at first because you're like, okay, now I'm responsible for all these people in a way, you know. So you feel like you have to do the right thing. So it's pretty good. I do theen doing it, like I said, since Oh seven and I do quite a bit of training. I enjoy doing the training, safety training, electrical safety, like yes, I had do I did CEPR first aid and combined space class for some guys, and so it's fun. I always enjoy that. Yeah, it's just kind of evolved over the like said, the last decade or so, trying to get better, smarter, try to you know, different, different opportunities and I've always come back to the electrical field one way or another. So it's just been it's where I need to be. Stuff I understand, I believe. You know I feel being electrician myself, which is kind of part of the reason why they chose me back in two...

...thousand and seven was I understand what the guys in the field have to do, you need to do, and try to help them do it in the safe way that they can, you know, go home at night if you will, but just trying to it gets, like I said, a lot it could be. Could be a lot of pressure. You feel a lot of pressure, but then you get with people that work well and they trust you. That's the biggest thing, is trying to get trust from your people. That way they'll be honest with you more often. You just said something that that stood out to me and I truly believe in that. At the end of the day, it's about making sure the guys go home safely at night. I know I talk to a lot of business owners and professionals and a lot of people more concerned with compliance other than safety. So you know, you want to make sure the guys go home and I know you're taking care of everything you can to make sure that that's covered. So if you got the compliant side, you know safety, you know safety falls right in line. Agree. Yeah, once you get to the point where they they know the rules, if you will, understand it, and it makes them, like I said, happier workers. They don't feel like they're being struggled, stressing trying to do things that not having the right tools, not having the right equipment, not having the right training to do their job safely because of the electrical it is. It's not the most dangerous out there, but it's it has its risks, just like any construction job. And then we also do, you know, use service and maintenance stuff back that too. You go into plants or you may not know what you're up against until you get there. Now we with the trainees. We do these trainees for the guys. Are you writing these programs up yourself or you using some type of software? How do you get that done? Some of them do, some of my have a basically kind of working on. We have our programs, if you will, our policy, but also when it comes to the training, we kind of kind of use some of the I don't want to caught, can stuff and stuff that's kind of drow up to the point. But when it comes to the electrical safety side, that's something I've wrote programs for from a previous employer and so here we're just kind of still, you know, maturing, if you will, with me. But yeah, I enjoy a joy sitting down writing, you know, trainings and programs and making a presentation, being able to add some video to it make it interesting so they're not just blah blah blah. You will kind of just listening. So just try to it. It's a challenge, but and it takes a lot of time. So that's where I kind of run into kind of using some of the premate stuff. Is just because we have a lot of a lot of work going on, a lot of people out there and it's just myself and to safety managers that work with me. So that's just reason. What sighs crewe are you typically dealing with all subs and need direct employees. was just go over that? Yeah, well, direct directing the field. We were pushing up over three hundred last year and it's kind of slow down a little bit going back to our normal right around two hundred hundred eighty two hundred in the field and they could be on jobs that are one person up the ten person. We've had jobs for they had and we've had a Hu over a hundred people just recently. Yeah, so we have that and then I'll we do some subs. We hire out of some of our underground stuff. We don't do our own digging. So we hied back excavation company by about new project we're just starting. It's we're doing a lot of direct so boring. So where they ultimate contractor? But we have a subs under so we we enjoy it. We include them with our safety meetings. You know the form and know that those guys are working with us but kind of for us, which makes us ultimately responsible. You know, I'm there's the GC, you know, or the owner, but then you also have you know the subs and the subs under the subs pretty well. So it's a it's interesting. You have some most of them are pretty good about it. They go okay, yeah, here's the roles, we get it, we understand, you know. So it's been over the years. It's been challenging. I've had something that like well, you know, I've done this way for a hundred...

...years. So try to tell me what to do. Yeah, I know it's hard to get them to change. You know, they say you can't teach a dog new tricks. So you know, I definitely understand that. And now with the subs, do you just let them get in on your safety meetings or do you offer trainees to them as will? How are you handling with the sub contractors? Usually we just get we get their information, they're in Jurna's programs or their licensing and so on, but we don't really spend a lot of time training then per se, just because of the fact that it's I want to say liability. But we want to make sure that they're getting the training from their people. You know, it's a tough one. So you may let them sitting in all your safety meetings, but as far as the trainees, you're keeping that responsibility. You and meal, but you may have them so you know, show them. Will have them show you your IPP or any Dang training documentation if they already have it in their own companies. Out of my right. Yeah, it's exactly. And speaking of training, I I have done some over the past. I can get involved with we working some facility to have, still have as best to send them. So I get we get those guys together with our guys and we'll do you all do a training with them, awareness type stuff. But and then, basically, you know, it's the heat at the stuff. We get involved with that with them. It's here in California we have the you know the rules, ninety five plus, where has to be really, really odd process we have to go through every day. Is Ninety five the heatd thats for California. That's that. It's well, actually starts at eighty where you have a heat he eight hundred and eighty five is a heat index. But if once you get over ninety five, it's called a high heat days. So because we have a little bit of humidity here, not a whole lot in the summer, maybe twenty thirty percent, but we get look it up to a hundred. He's acramento on a cane, usually in the late late afternoon. So yes, Ninety five her. But we have to do see take two meeting, tailgate me and we fought with all our employees on every job that are working outside and then they send that into the office and we keep records of it. If something anything were to happen. So we were to get ill, that we can go here. We are wed what we can. Again, we still have the you know, lead to horse to water, but can't make it drink kind of thing sometimes. You know, it's quite the EN summers not that bad here. It's only last maybe two, three months where it's hot. So do you prepare or focus on he stress only during the summer or do you kind of startup apparent in the wintertime pretty much just then the summer easily start around May and then, if we have some and in fact Callo, she's work on the heavy at heat. An indoor heat illness requirement coming. They've been working on for a couple years now. But no, we don't much so much in the winter just because the we get brain average temperatures, you know, fifty sixty degrees at the peak. I'll tell you where in heat stress training all year around out here in Arizona. Oh yeah, I remember. Now let me ask you in the safety field, what is one commonly hill belief that you passionately disagree with? What kind of like what you mentioned earlier? It's where people just completely focus on the compliance side. Just to make sure you know, the lawyers are good. Ohan is good, but you still have to think about, you know, like I said, that the boots on the ground and then being a safety manager, safety person that's out in there atmosphere. You know, I'll get to go out as much as I used to, but having to be they're seeing them or some people kind of do safety from an office, and that, you know, I saw extort all while back and show this is what your safety manager's boot should look like. You know, they're all their muddy and dusty and they're not shiny shoe. WHO's so? But I guess that's probably the biggest thing, is just trying to focus on...

...or not focusing on the people themselves, because it's tough, you know, and speaking on safety guys, running everything through the office. What's a from the office? What's the typical work day look like for you? How do you get to the job sites or will average well, like anything? I have emails in the morning, you know, of the phone Jesus blows up in the morning and I, you know, kind of check the other safety managers and we don't really do a meeting every day, per sae, because they'll go hit the jobs first thing in the morning where I make them to the office or you know, that first hit the job and that's, you know, work on. We have a fleete manager program system that I the I guess you call the Admin for. So I have quite a bit of stuff there and some networking with some like pre qualification websites. So I have to update periodically. Yeah, I guess I put too much time in the office and I prefer but how want to be good out to the job sites. I used to try to focus at least maybe a couple days a week or maybe hit a couple jobs in a week. And we have a safety electronic reporting if you well, that we use for record keep. We just started using it just within the past couple months and so we do that. So we'll go out and do, you know, do job looks and with every reports to the foreman. Like to talk with the foreman and go on the jobs. They usually typically to try to take find if it's just a single form in job, take them, walk around with them, have them show me what they're doing, what they need to do, and answering, you know, answering phone calls. They called me and say I need this or how do I get this? So I do like a lot of it's administrative at this point in my career, but keep seeing their conditioning, I guess. So, speaking of doing things electronically, keeping an electronic file for a lot of your safety programs, are there any resources or tools that you think people aren't using correctly as far as you know, some of the safety programs and softwares? Yeah, probably the right. Some of the hardest is the record keeping of the incident injury into into that we have or in the fields and the trades. But yeah, I don't know anything specific right. I off hand. I mean maybe come back to it. Not, no worries. If some comes to your mind, we can always go back to that. I had told you of my pre interview. I know a lot of our clients are using analytics to kind of move together there, you know, say t programs, UN telling what hazards to look for whatnot, and I know a lot of companies are moving to that. So I know there's one area as far as in technology. You know, electronically, especially with technology and how it's you know, is a steadily growing and moving a fast paced so you know, final electronically is definitely a good way to go and manage. You know your programs? Yes, we are. I said, we have a we have to have a several or a couple different things. We have one that we use for the superintendent side, project management side, where they do for the employees as far as the Labor keeping, let moving people around, you know, and it actually has a set up where you can have the person's individual training and there what they're trained is they're training fork lift, their changings or lift. They're really good at excavations and that kind of stuff in there. As far as the operation side, and it really helps me as well because I also have access to that, so you can kind of see where we may have a deficit in training for me to get up people up to speed. Say We have a job, we're going to have a lot of aerial equipment. Then you know when you double make sure that we're getting involved with that. So I can kind of go in there and see what the errors and then we have we also do for they a...

...new project comes out, he gets sent to me. Here's the outline of it, so I can look at it kind of get an idea on the safety side. But basically it's just we can go out to a job, walk a project, gout it. People call them all different things and we can take pictures of negative and positive things and we don't want to beat them up, you know, because there's things that happen on jobs or projects. We got all kinds of trade or trains to act and everybody want has to be done, you know, get their part, get their job done. So we can do that. We can, and then that gives me when I go into my out every two months with my executives and we sit down, we can kind of go through here's our here's our pitfalls, here's our positive so that's something I have to be able to use. Back years ago when this electronic steps first started, pretty much back in two thousand and sixty sevens when kind of started becoming popular. Now it's there's just it's a limited out there. It's going to be berries in cost berries and, you know, blaying. If you will listen, here's every reason. Is Pretty Simple, pretty basic. been around a while and again it shows me that. And I can also use the vehicle cameras that we have to we have uhicle, so trying to keep it where I can actually you know somebody, you know, roll to stop sign or then, and it's kind of Nice because it actually I showed to the guys, just saying I have small group in a small class yesterday and showing them what it what, you know, what their scores are. Did you can actually gives them a score of they're driving, theirs, how much, how much they wrote the speed limit, how much percentagewise, and so that's that's something that just started to use or get some good feedback on it. So it's, you know, in my my executive team or it's like well, you know, we can do somebody has a good record. Is Time gets a hundred or ninety nine or whatever. Give me them gift cards down that over in the past. Yeah, it just to speak to the cameras in the vehicles. I was a truck driver and I did a lot of driving and California up and down and I five all over. I remember when they first installed the cameras in our trucks. You know, it does give you a sense of you know, big brother is watching. It makes you tighten up a little bit because I before that I've seen I've been in the safety office and they watching videos. You know, a lot of truck drivers doing a lot of crazy stuff. You know, you're in eating while to drive and fixing food while there's driving, like you know. So it definitely brings the bringing those cameras in there let you know the hey big brothers watching. You know, you got to be on your P's and q's safety at all time. So just knowing it that cameras there, I know it makes a big difference in terms of the safety. Yeah, and it first services there's the kick back, you know, like the big brother thing. Why are you spying on me? That's what we kind of we kind of decided to go put not lean towards the face recognition stuff, which does does work. I mean we have the option to do that, but it's mainly the forward because we have some we had fortunately, few accidents incidence, but we also get a lot of where people call in and say, you know, driver cut me off, blah, blah blah, and it's like he cut you off because he's only going, you know, five or eight over the speed limit. You want to go twenty over. This to be London and we actually have won the other last month where our driver was sitting in a stoplight and his camera picked up a motor vehicle accident at an intersection. He was sitting there waiting to get on the freeway. It was out in Oakland and just waiting and kind of a building blind spot. He's on one way there, on a one way and there's three vehicles comes into into the screen and the first one on the closest to him, decide they want to turn left and didn't realize it. Did pay any care that there was two vehicles next to them the other two lanes. The...

...first vehicle hit put the front of the sect the truck and then spun around hit a car in the other lane. Didn't even know they were coming and then, you know, nobody was injured, but it was just I show that to the guys and they're like wow, that's pretty interesting, you know. So it helps them get to buy in. Now situation like that happens, do what do you do with that recording and that data? Do you send it in if there's like an investigation, what do you do with that? With that recording? I haven't really done much with that's really my first and only one at this point, but we tried to because I thought right away that, you know, the driver took off. The cause the accident but actually he came back into the screen and pass our driver and pulled over. So I didn't show that, but we kind of I kind of kept it just in case there was something going on. But yeah, and it wasn't really clear enough picture. You see the vehicles but you really couldn't get license plate. But uh, but yeah, there was. If there is something like that, that does occur. A couple years ago we had a car with one of our truck seat sideswipe on the off ramp waiting for the turn right in the car team down the ramp slammed in the side of him and used him to make the turn and he actually followed her for a while until you know, once is you know, don't follow anymore. But we got the license plate and everything. So if we'd had the cameras back then, maybe it would have been something we could use, but we didn't. Really the problem with the hidden runs used because they're NSING, you know, license insurance and or under the influence of something. But so we didn't anything out of that. We had to fix our true. Now this Swiss gears a little bit for my for the views that are listening, and I know I'll run into a lot of will fair share of business owners that don't think, oh she exists, whether they've never had any contact with them. You know, whether they're reporting their injuries or not. For anybody that's listening that you know that deals with the injury on the job side of job site injuries. Can you walk us through like an ocean inspection or when ocean comes to the side and kind of what to do, what not to do, some processes? Yeah, it's probably the well falls back on record keeping, because I've had an instance where ocean who come on sizes a few years back where they witnessed somebody doing unsafe act, staying on the ladder on a balcony, basically way over the hand or site and making sure you have your records and somewhere or another, even if it's paper, if it's electronics something. So what helped us with that not becoming incitation was the weekly sat to meeting. Two days prior to this incident occurring. This employee signed yes, what I know how to use the ladder. I will not. You know, they talk strictly about this because it was it was basically a temporary barrier up there before they put the glass in. You know. Should I talked on the phone? He's like, Oh, yeah, no, everything was good. So just having your record keeping being polited the in I've worked for companies where they go oceans on site, shut the jobs down. Everybody runs away. That's not good. So we don't do that, but other trades will. All the trains will just say it. Both shows up, you go home. But the big thing is being cordial with him. Try to if you there's a lot of night work with small companies as well and I didn't know if she existed really until maybe the last new fifteen years because you don't really see them because they're kind of a lot more reactive than proactive sometimes. But I did with caloshaw and on the at the compliant side, and then they have then consultation side. So a good thing to do is you can actually get cook well, the feds as well. You can do a have consultation and look at your project. If you invite them to come look at your project, they will review it, maybe see your goods, your bad issue,...

...see what you need to correct and they will they won't cite you. If you if you know at that time now they may give you okay, we want this fixed and a week or in three days and then we'll follow up on it and if it's not fixed that point or corrected, then yeah, they may, they could still cite you, but early trying to be not to be afraid of them. They're not really out there to aggressive. But if you have a serious incident, which had one down southern California, you couple three years ago, where all almost a fatality. I'm the guy could have died and you know, oh, she came out kind of close at the job. They went through everything, went through our fall protection programs and and drilled and drilled and drilled and fortunately the company there we had the records of. They had a had an MP for the product tast they were doing, or a Jj if you will, and the employee just did not put his lanyard on. His anger point. It was was wearing his harness when he fell twenty four feet to the concrete floor below him through a ceiling. And there was really there was no citation, dude. The fact it was all a lot of times it falls down on the employ Miss Conduct. If you have the proof that you have educated them and what they're doing. And we talked about the drink of drinking water, bring the Horse to water at the same instant. Another instant where guy could have died from heat exhaustion. He actually in the heat stroke and he was found unconscious. You know, he's the young kid and just and they had the procedures in place where it's kind of it was down the southern California getting out in the out in the desert portion, and they had a system where on the site where they would call in everybody. You know, people had radios and they would make sure everybody drink water. It's been an it's been an hour, and then every hour. So they had to actually call in to yes, I'm here yet, them there. So this apprenticce was out by himself, just working and just he was dehydrated, severely so, and the oceans. Again, they came out. Of course I was a big deal and they saw the procedures they had in place to protect the employee. Give it had plenty. There was water there, but it was by thounds. All said done. Medics showed up into the hospital and it took about eight liters of ivy fluid for him to actually fail use the restroom. He was at dehydrated and they let him out the same day. He was fine. Eventually you just got the hydrated and, as you know, that working out the heat. You know, you got to pace yourself. Yeah, I would say just like that, keep your rec could keep record keeping and invite them out to see your stuff, and so documentation, good record keeping, being polite while they're out there on the job site. Be Curtius. Don't be scared to have them come out to look around. Now let's say if you, you know and listen to, do one of these consultations and you're seeking their assistance, does that you're moving forward? Is that leave you open to like ongoing inspections? Does that put you in the actually know? I have a deal with fet Osha, you know directly, but lot with Klosha. They labore involved. So let's say you contact Osha, Hey can come out get the consultation when you're a contest contacting them, does that leave you more open to inspections of them kind? I have not seen that visit. I have not seen that. I've had them were the drunk contract may call them out and says a pretty good size project. That drunk contract comes out and has a like a BPP program Volunteer Protection Program from Osha. Callosha has one as well fed and they'll come out to the job look at it. They'll give them a list of good trades, bad trains, what's going on, and that job of going for two more years and we never see ocean again because they know you're trying. They see you're trying not thinking out there and is a disaster...

...and people are down in ten foot ditches with no shoring or benching. Yeah, they're going to be a little aggressive anxious about that. But the beauty of it is consultation side and the enforcement side actually do not communicate with each other. So consultation goes out and looks and goes yeah, here's the thing, fix this and then we'll follow up with you. But they don't go back to enforcement side and go well, look, we saw this, we saw this, we saw that, and then, Paul, send your army of Ocean spectors out there. It doesn't, at least to a caloshit that doesn't. It's and they've been very clear about that, because I've been through a couple of VP PEEP programs. Are General Contractors out here, and we had we got the Golden Gate Award which is a fur jobs. I just like your means you're you're safety is actually real where your people, but the interview some of your employees, they look at your paperwork, it look at your policies and and then again they never see him again, you know. So it's it's kind of ID say. Part of that being proactive, you know, and it's it takes a while and I'd like said I didn't constructions since one thousand nine hundred and eighty three and I've seen huge, huge difference, almost like a conflict adventures with a consultation side, any of worse enforcement side, intermingland. So well, I didn't know that. So thank you for that information. Moving around a little bit. When you first got into safety, I know it was a big learning curve for you, but being how you were kind of thrown into it, what's one thing that you wish you had a known when you first started? And safety boy give you some yeah, but definitely that's a good one. Yeah, because I I'm wish I'd had known before. I don't know it. It's it was very at first. It was very, I want to say frightening, but a little bit. I wish I'd have been and they did kind of moving a little little bit slower, but they put me on a job site as a coordinator for a couple months to try to get me used to doing watching people, not trying to get away from folks on their actual what they're building, but more about how they're building it or how they're doing it. So I guess that was the big thing was for me was breaking away from, you know, try and instruct him how to just put onto something simple, install something simple, opposed to, you know, the safety thing. So I got I got you a hand slap a few times on that one, just just trying to break away from that. It was probably something I wish I'd known I could have done better. I know was a lot of great things happening and a lot of times we we don't see the hard ships or struggles that go into creating a lot of successes that we have. Are there any failures that you've learned from over the years that moving forward, you've taken with you too and said, you know what, based off that situation, I know how to do things differently now. There any particular situations that come to mind? Yes, I've had some over the over the years on occasion, and basically it's with the passive, aggressive foreman getting out there with them and then trying not to get instead just budding head, try not to butt head, because I had a couple over the years that were old school, well, my age, but you know, kind of old school. We did this way and you're not can tell me how to do it. You're just the safety guy. So that was that was come kind of some of the learning curve I learned was not to butt heads, but just to try to work with them, see their issues, see what their frustrations are, and in the funny thing is usually with those, I've had two or three like that, they become almost like a friend, if you will, over a period of time, just because you I learned to take the patients or, you...

...know, be patient with them and go not go out there and just, you know, chop them up, you know, slowly kind of nibble away at different things, trying to teach them processes, you know, like if you don't need to use a hammer, you know your screw driver for a Chisel, then don't you know. So that's kind of simple, but that's probably the biggest thing is just trying to I had to learn to not just get frustrated with them and you know and you go tell her superintendent and get him all that doesn't work. If you go above their heads without telling them, that is bad. That creates a bad environment for everyone. So it's best to work one on one with the field and then they're serious issues that of course, that you approach it higher up, but the biggest thing is just trying to be right there. Sounds like just from speaking to you and the conversations we had, is definitely a level of building a good communication, building that trust with the guys on the side, whether it's form and is or whatnot, and it sounds like this part of your process building that communication, building that trust, not looking down on the guys, and it serves to you know, have a Jaf safer's out side. Yeah, you get to buy in, you know, because I work from you know, the first day apprinces. You know, try to get we try to do we I mean you're doing an orientation when they come on board, not as we're working towards getting it more of a safety side of it, orientation instead of just, you know, the HR part of it, which is something I had in the path at work really well and my previous company where every new hire came in where they are forming general foreman first day AP Prince, which is, you know, usually somebody right out of high school or just right out of their part time restaurant job, and spending, you know, to couple hours with them just trying to go here's, here's what we expect, there's what we like to see, here's, you know, and put it into perspective of them going home stay, you know, have a good bye, because I mean construction really, I mean it's a it's a good industry. I mean I've done very well, you know, in the trade. So that's the biggest thing is trying to keep those guys they can stay healthy and over their lifetime, not just that day or that job, but understanding that if you put yourself at risk, you're also putting your family risk. I answer so, but I think on board and having a good one boarding system is definitely key. So I definitely agree with you whole heartily. Is there anything, in your opinion, that people should stop doing when it comes to safety? Yes, there is. I have some that I deal with like site safety or other like the genn contract or may have a sittific safety person. Biggest thing I have with that is sometimes is the either two sides of it. Some are just they're collecting a check, going around their blindfolds on because they want to get involved, and then there's the others that are going around doing the the safety cop you know this, that and the other and everything you do, who they find something negative about it, and that's that's kind of on the issues that I see out there is you have to be patient with what's going on, trying not to be, I said, aggressive about it, but kind of going that same direction. But yeah, they think the biggest thing is just trying to be understanding of what they're trying to do and how they're trying to do it and maybe come up and if you need to improve it, come over the way together on how we can do that, you know, with the working side and the safety side on from other better process over the years, tools and things that improve so much where instead of you know, when I started back in the day, you...

...use a big drill, a whole hop drill, and ef thing walks up on you'll twist and you know, could break your wrists or wrap around your hand. Nowadays they have tools that have clutches in them, you know, so it binds up so and and so that's that helps a lot and then also makes your know they understand, I protection you understand the right kind of shoes, because I see some kids that come out and they're wearing cowboy boots and it's like that's nice and all, but your feet are not going to last your life die they look cool. But now going back to you had mentioned a Golden Gate Award. Are there any achievements that you're more proud of than others, or do you kind of pay any attention to that at all? And as far as far as the you mentioned the Golden Gate. So yeah, that's something I'm pretty kind of proud of. As I like I said, I started here in things were a little rough, little behind times, and I got thrown right into a consultation with five Osha compleat consultation officers and it was, it was, it was intimidating. How does that go? Walkers through that one and when experience first out of the nervous track, you know, I'd only been here too, maybe three weeks, and I got a call from the General Contractors Safety Manager Director Said Hey, we're going to do interview you guys for this Golden Gate. So I'm like, okay. So I had to go through and kind of dig up our programs that were outdated, very outdated, but it's all I had. So it was it was interesting as that industrial high gennis was in there as well for Osha and then for other officers. And the funny thing is I hand in the book, they went through it, looked at it and notice some things were out of whack, like our basically the biggest one was rest retort protection, I mean identity. Going to go right to that, of course. So was like he's like, this isn't really for to what you guys actually do in our business, because we don't do as bestist removal. We don't do that kind of stuff. So so we got through it. We made it was they were very informative. They actually went through the book and they tabbed and said, you know, this, need this, could do this better, here's what you can put here, and they really helped me go through it and then we had the fun the the final and final interview, the four months later and the handed of the new binder that they helped me make through understanding some of the stuff that they look for and it was. It was a piece of cake. I'm they were just like this is this is great. You guys are good. We were in had, you know, they had a ceremony and contract a big barbecue for everybody on site and it was a big deal, not for just us. There was a for the contractors that received it on this particular project, along with the general contry getting there their vpp. And then we had a second one last year, same general contractor, different job entirely, and it's just a know, twelve story high rise, our midrise building, and I showed up with my book and they kind of laughed and looked at me like as well to worried about this, basically, and I was still a little nervous. And but now we went through it and they were just like, you know, basically called me all your old hand at this now. So we're not we're not going stress over yet. was like, okay, so we got on that job as well and it was but again, they were they were very helpful and I would once they kind of broke the ice, you know, because I get a little I don't want to they startcats if I get a little yeah, I beat it myself. You know, when I told I the IH I...

...said, you know, I handed it to you, but did not expect you to actually read it. And they're like Oh, well, you know. So it was. Yeah, but after that it became just a chrtal meeting. It wasn't like they're on the side of the table, I'm sitting in the you know, the witness stand. It was it was a good experience, but it wasn't timidating. Yeah, I could imagine, especially why, just being new to it and just, you know, being thrown out there. You know a lot of people that I speak to that are in the safety kind of you know what happens. He just get thrown into the position. You know, I get women, I did when human resource apart, I mean pay roll. They may not have a safety person and the owner says, Hey, I'm easy to find this a safety program and you know, I see that a lot to where, you know, people are just thrown into, you know, to the field. We really know formalize education. Yeah, and and we I still see that as well. We have a like said, some of our drunk carts work for they're not largest contractors, but they'll they just basically, often times they and right other out of their labor pool. You know, a guy could be a carpenter, you know by trade, and they go well, we need a safety person. Tag Your it. So those are those are tough, those are interesting, but again, that's where we try to I try to get involved now, help work with people. Tell them you maybe should get ocean thirty, because someone don't even have that. They just have I show up every day and they're you know, but you know, I definitely start with you're working with yourself. I've had a journeyman just turned out last year and approach me goes, how do I get into safety feel and I says, well, that's to be thrown into it now. I just felt him. I said well, I said what are your interest and I just stole. I said at least get ocean thirty. It's not a big deal. A lot of our guys do it just for their recertification for their license for California. Do we have to restart every three years? So I just tell them you get involved with that. Try to find some online stuff that maybe not terribly expensive or there's some free stuff out there as well. But it's tough because I see some people just getting beat up because they don't know what's going on. Or they'll approach my guys can say hey, you need to do this is that way, and it's like well, I guys like no, that's not that's not right, that's not that's not required or's not the safest way to do it. So it's it's it's hard on them, you know, and it happens a lot, a lot, and I think it's up to the person that gets thrown under there to try to in a lot of times contractors are companies won't even help you pay for your stuff. You know, I was fortunate. I had a company that paid, you know, basically a two year degree, if you will, certificate, and they they covered a hundred percent of the cost, you know. So and that's not that's not everywhere. Of course, they were pretty large company, electric contractor, and so they had the heavy investment. You know. I mean probably when I first interviewed for the position, I had to go see my vice president of the operations in the corporate office with the safety director at the time, and he said, you know, he says you've been successful as a foreman with us and you've accomplished this, you've complished you know, made money, turnback hours, that kind of stuff. It's safe. I was fortunate as the foreman I never had to fill out an instant report because I just say a bird dog. But so anyway, so going in with that interviewing with him and he goes over, going to be investing one thousand, five hundred and twenty grand and you were taking out of your element and throwing and put you another element. It's going to take you a few years to just start gaining...

...process or for progression again. So that I was that's really the biggest thing is you got to try to find somebody that will take care of you or get in some of the you know, just try to try to learn some stuff on your own, you know, if you can, and just I have a curveball question for you. If you, if you weren't in the safety field, what would you be doing? Well, what will be a dream job? Wasn't a safety field dream job? Oh boy, I don't know about that one. It's hard. I've been I've done so much over the years that I really like making stuff. I guess my dream job would be having my own shop where I can work on my own and not not electro shop, but like I make furniture. I You I've made furniture for years. Not Fancy, you know, but I do a lot of wood working would, crafting and welding and I take old stuff and turning into something new. If you have, for instance, you're interested, I have a table, a die in our breakfast note that I started with a thirty, thirty five kba transformer that was getting thrown away, you know, to almost a four hundred pound instrument right to pick out the windings it's on. So I was able to get that and make it into a built the frame around it, table, put a glass top on it and people are like, you know, you probably sell it for thousands of dollars, like but I like it. You know, some animated chair. Took some old chairs that would be found in the thrift store that were rusted out, old patio chairs, polished them all down, my wife helped me and, you know, a clip coded and made them just metal, no paint, and that's kind of my thing, my dream, and I enjoy working on making things new again. So I know, either that or back in the field building stuff. I want to get ready to wrap it up here with you before we do. I'm in the first of all, you gave us some great information, some great insight and deal with ocean and record keeping documentation. Is there anything you want to leave our listeners with? Any type of advice or give us some words before you go? That's as far as if you're, you know, season safety person, I think it's really important to find what I was told in construction years and years ago was you work yourself out of a job every day. That's what you're doing. You're yourself out of the job, so you go to next job. The kind of thing is trying to find somebody that you can mentor or somebody that maybe help them go in safety direction, because honestly, for the long time it was it was Oh yo, taboo safety guys, but now it's actually become more with companies. Society are expecting it. So maybe mentor somebody help them get through. Be Young, could be older, doesn't matter. No like to safe manager, both older than meat, mentors shit, each one teach one. I like that. I like that, James. It was a pleasure. I want to thank you for your time. I know you busy out to hey. It wasn't that bad right. We made it through it. We have some technical difficulties, but day we made it. It was good. It was a great experience. I appreciate your time and in need of a blueprint for workplace safety and compliance. Safety Services Company is North America's leading provider of Safety Training and compliant solutions. We supply custom safety manuals and policies and on site and online training solutions that will enhance the safety of your workplace, and our compliance services will save you time and resources, guaranteeing peace of mind. With eighteen...

...years in the industry, we have a proven track record of helping customers achieve better safety outcomes by providing customized solutions that fit the unique needs of each business. To learn more, head to safety services COMPANYCOM. Thanks for listening to the Safety Management Show. To hear more stories from safety leaders, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you enjoyed the show, leave us a rating. Until next time, stay safe.

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