The Safety Management Show
The Safety Management Show

Episode 1 · 3 months ago

Compliance Is Not the Same as Safety

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

When you work as a safety professional, one of the more frustrating attitudes you run into is that people confuse compliance with safety.


Compliance is not synonymous with safety.


Just ask James Tait, who, in his role as Corporate Safety Director at Schetter Electric, runs into this attitude — and helps guide others past it — every day.


James joins us as our first guest to discuss:

- The difference between safety and compliance

- What he’s learned interacting with OSHA

- How gamification can improve safety and make it fun at the same time

Hear more stories from safety professionals by subscribing in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for The Safety Management Show in your favorite podcast player.

You're listening to the SafetyManagement Show where safety professionals share engaging storiesabout their time in the trenches and the hard earned lessons they've learnedalong the way, but dig in. Thank you for joining this. For another episodeof the Safety Management Show I'm your host Mike Dean, and today we have avery special guess I want to introduce. He is been in the safety field for well overa decade and been married for thirty seven years, he's a proud father and grandfather he's a safety director for shedder oflectury introducing to day James, Take James. How are you today I'll find finkdo very well Mike How's the morning going so far for you, I think, goingpretty good kind of slow, so it's good right, yeah, just to be right. How's work beenyou've, been working or to hardly work, we're working, Harvard saying busytaring to warm up a little bit, but not too bad. So I know we got some some somequestions we're going to get into and before we get into you know, Talk Shop.I want to get it to some family stuff. What's something that your family wouldsay about you, you know if you could give us one thing: Oh boy kind of maybeoutspoken. If you will, I say busy, you know you know talk about my hobbies anddifferent things that I do Okin cars and you know you have any favorite carsor any particular projects, you're working with yeah right now I have asixty three triumph from getting put back together. It's in good shape body,wise everything I just have to do. The suspension drive train all the stuffthat was robber and plastic is all being you know, it's been sitting fortwenty six years inside, but it's it looks good, it's just not running yet so getting it to the safety. How didyou get into the safety field? But what brought you to safety yeah kind of itkind of goes way back to my early s. You know I got into work in a heademployer, we worked and they created a safety response team. If you all forthe for the fight and got into that and that kind of started, you know learningthe safety side of it by being become an emp at the site and then kind ofmoved on from there. Then that was until probably two thousand- and I twothousand and six when I had offered to from another employer, like back in theLECTICA field, to send me to schools and training to beon a safety manager at that time, and I had some experience with the early twosands with fire department volunteer party apartments Camerin the sat aspectthere of you know how to survive, how to take care of your fellow workers oryour O. Your people, if you all- and I kind of rolled into that- and then Ijust kind of threw my background, I would new offices created here insacrament and it was. It was a good mood for me. Itwas different. It was kind of pressure, nerve, racking at first, because you'relike okay, now I'm responsible for all these people. In a way you know so youfeel, like you have to do the right thing, so this is pretty good. I do bedoing it like. I said since o seven and I do quite a bit of training, I enjoyedDoo training, know safety, training, Elegia safety like yes, I had to do. Idid TPROO first days and combine space class for some guys, and so it's fun. Ialways enjoy that yeah, it's just kind of evolved over the, like I said thelast decade or so trying to get better smarter. Try to you know differentdifferent opportunities that I've always come back to ELEGIA field, oneway or another. So it's just been it's where I need to be stuff. I understandI believe you know the being an electrician myself, which is kind ofpart of the reason why they chose me...

...back two thousand and seven was Iunderstand with the guys in the field have to do need to do and try to helpthem. Do it in a safe way that they can. You know, go home the night if you will,but just trying to it, gets like. I said a lot of could be could be a lotof pressure. You feel a lot of pressure, but then you know you get with peoplethat work well and they trust you. That's the biggest thing is trying toget trust from your people. That way, they'll be honest with you more often,you just said something that that stood out to me and I truly believe in that, at the endof the day, it's about making sure the guys go home safely at night. I know I talked to a lot of businessowners and professionals and a lot of people more concerned with complianceother than safety. So you know you want to make sure the guys, Goin home and Iknow you're, taking care of everything you can to make sure that that'scovered. So if you got the compliance side, you know safety. You know, safetyfalls right in Linei, agree yeah. Once you get to the point where they knowthe rules, if you will understand it and it makes them like, I said happierworkers they don't feel, like they're being you know, struggled stressingtrying to do things that not having the right tools not having the rightequipment not having the right training to do their job safely because of theelectrical it is, it's not the most dangerous out there, but it's it hasits risks just like any construction job, and then we also do you know, useservice and maintenance stuff like that, too, you go into plants or you may notknow what you're up against until you get there now when you with the trainee,when you do these trainee for the guys, are you writing these programs upyourself or you using some type of software? How you getting that done?Some of them do some of em. I have a basically you know kind of working on.We have our programs if you will or our policies, but also when it comes to thetraining we kind of kind of use. Some of the I don't want to call it canstuff it stuff that kind of drop to the point. But when it comes to Letgood,that's something. I've wrote programs for from a previous employer, and sohere we're just kind of still. You know maturing. If you will with me but yeahI enjoy, I joy sitting down riding you know, trainings and programs and makinga presentation now being able to add some video to it. Make it interestingso they're, not just blah blah blah. You will kind of just listening, sojust try it it's a challenge, but- and it takes a lot of time. So that's whereI kind of run into kind of using some of the pre made stuff is just becausewe have a lot of a lot of work going on a lot of people out there and it's justmyself and had two safety managers that work with me. So that's just recent:WHAT SIS crew are you typically dealing with all subs and need direct employeeswith a scope or that yeah well direct direct in the field we were pushing upover to three hundred last year and it's kind of slowed down a little bitgoing back to our normal right. Around two hundred hundred and eighty twohundred in the field take a beyond jobs that are one person of the ten personwe find jobs where they had. No, we had a hut over a hundred people justrecently yeah. So we have that and then we do some subs. We hire out some ofour underground stuff. We don't do our on digging, so we have back toexcavation company. We have it new project, we're starting it we're doinga lot of direction. Boring so were the ultimate contractor, but we have a subunder so we we enjoy it. We include them with our safety meanings. You knowthe former know that you know those guys are working with us, but kind offor us which makes us ultimately responsible. You know I'm there's theGS you know or the owner, but then you also have you know the sub and subs onof the subs to well. So so it's interesting you have some most of themare pretty good about it. They go okay, yeah, here's roles, we get it. Weunderstand, you know. So it's been over the years. It's been challenging. I'vehad something that like well. You know I done this way for a hundred years, soI try to tell me what to do yeah. I...

...know it's hard to get them to change.You know they say you can't teach a dog me tricks, so you know. I definitelyunderstand that and now with the subs, do you just let them get in on yoursafety meetings? Or do you offer training to him as well? How are you handling with the subcontractors? Usually we just get. We get their information, their ingenousprograms or their licensing and so on, but we don't really spend a lot of time.Training then per se. Just because of the fact that it's, I want to say, aliability, but we want to make sure that they're getting the train fromtheir people. You know it's a tough one, so you may let them sit in on yoursafety meetings but as far as the trainings you're, keeping thatresponsibility on them, but you may have them so you know show them, willhave them, show you your IPP or any Dan training documentation if they alreadyhave it in their own companies, at about right, yeah, exactly and speakingof training. I have done some over the past. I can get involved with weworking to so silly to have still have as best it in them. So I get we getthose guys together with our guys and we'll do you know I'll, do a trainingwith them awareness type of stuff, but and then, basically you know it's theheat on an stuff. We get involved with that with them. I here in California,we have the you know the rules. Ninety five plus, where had to be reallyreally on process we have to go through everyday, is ninety five. The Heat Index for California, that's that it's wellactually started a eighty where you have a heat e e D. Eight. Eighty fiveis the heat index, but if, once you get over ninety five, it's called the highheat day so because we have a little bit of humanity here, not a whole lotin the summer. You know maybe twenty thirty percent, but we get we'll get upto a hundred in Sacramento on occasion, usually in the late late afternoon, soye to ninety five or but we have to do a Seti. Take you meeting Pale gave mewe caught with all our employees on every job that are working outside andthen they send that into the office and we keep records of it. If so, itanything were to happen to over to get ill that we screened out here. We are,we did what we can again. We still have to you know, lead the horse to water,but can't make it drink kind of thing. Sometimes you know it's quite the andsummer's, not that bad. Here, it's only last, maybe two three months work hot.So do you prepare or focus on hes stress only during the summer, do youkind of start preparing in the winter time pretty much just in the summerusually start around May and then, if we have something and in fact callousesworking having a heat, an indoor heat illness requirement coming they've beenworking on for a couple o years now, but no, we don't not so much in thewinter just because he be get brain average temperatures. You know fiftysixty degrees at the peak I'll tell you were in. He stress, training all yearround out here in Arizona, Oh yeah, I remember Yep. Now let me ask you in the safetyfield, what is one commonly hill belief that you passionately disagree withOkin what you mentioned earlier? It's where people just completely focus onthe compliance side, just to make sure you know the lawyers are good, Oseasgood, but you still have to think about. You know, like I said the the boots onthe ground and then being a safety manager, say y person that's out intheir atmosphere. You know I get to go out asmuch as I used to, but having been somebody there seeing them or somepeople kind of do safety from an office and that you know I saw extra all whileback and showed just what your safety managers boots should. Look like. Youknow, they're all they're, muddy and dusty and they're not shiny shoes. So,but I guess that's probably the biggest thing is just trying to focus on or notfocusing on to people themselves,...

...because it's tough, you know and speaking on safety, guys runningeverything through the office. What's he from the office, what's the typicalwork day, look like for you every? How do you get to the top sides or what average well like anything, I haveemails in the morning. You know of the phone easy blows up in the morning and I you know kind of checked in otherfakey managers and we don't really do a meeting every day for say becausethey'll go hit a job first thing in the morning where I make them to the office,or you know that first I your job and that's you know work on. We have afleete manager program, the system that I take the I used to call the Admin forso I have quite a bit of stuff there and some networking with some requalification website. So I have toupdate periodically yeah. I guess I put too much time in the office a nightrefer, but how often do you get out to to the jobsides? I use t try to focus at least maybe a couple days a week or maybe hita couple jobs in a week and we have a safety electronic reporting. If youwill that we use for record, keep we just started using it just within thepast couple o months, and so we do that to Wel go out and do you know w de jobwops and what I Erford to the form and like to talk with the foreman they goon the job they usually typically to try to take finding if it's just asingle forming job take them. You know, walk around with them. Have them showme what they're doing what they need to do and answering you know, answeringphone calls. They call me and say I need this or how do I get this, so I dolike a lot of it as administrative at this point in my career bit keeps youin the air conditioning, I guess so speaking of doing thingselectronically, keeping an electronic file for a lot ofyour safety programs. Are there any resources or tools that you thinkpeople aren't using correctly? As far as you know, some of the safetyprograms and software's yeah, probably the probably some of the hardest, isthe record keeping of the incident, injuryand intimacy that we have or in the fields or the trades but yeah. I don'tknow anything specific right up hand I mean, and to come back to it, no, noworries. If some comes to your mind, we can always go back to that. I had told you of my my pre interview.I know a lot of our clients are using analytics to kind of got together theiryou know, safety programs and telling them what hazards to look for or whatnot- and I know a lot of companies are moving to that. So I know that's one area espars intechnology you know electronically, especially with technology, and howit's you know, sistently growing and moving as fastpace. So you know findingelectronically is definitely a good way to go and manage. You know yourprograms. Yes, we are. I said we have a. We have to have a several or a coupledifferent things. We have one that we use for the superintendent side,project management side where they do for the employees as far as the Labornow keeping lit moving people around you know, and it actually has the setup where you can have the person's individual training and there whatthey're trained entertaining forklift their changing, scissor, lift, they're,really good at excavations and that kind of stuff in there as far as theoperation side- and it really helps me as well- because I also have access tothat. So we can kind of see where we may have a deficit in training for me to get upbeable to speed. So we have a job we're going to have a lot of arial equipment.Then you know when you double make sure that we're getting involved with that.So I can kind of go in there and see what the errors and then we have. We also do with a newproject comes out. He gets sent to me.

You know here's the outline of it, so Ican look at it and kind of get an idea on the safety side. But basically it'sjust. We can go out, do a job, walk a project, audit people call them alldifferent things, and we could take pictures of negative and positive things. I mean we, we don't want to beat them up. You knowbecause there's things that happen on jobs or projects where you got allkinds of trains or trade stack and everybody want has to be done. You knowget their part to get their job done, so we can do that. We can we and thenthat gives me. When I go into my about every two months with my executives andwe sit down, we can kind of go through here's our now. Here's our pit ball,there's a positive, so that's something I have been able to use back years agowhen this electronic sets first started pretty much back in two thousand andsixty thousand a d seven when kind of started becoming popular now, there'sjust it's unlimited out there, it's going to be berries in cost varies, and you know bellying. If you will this oneyears, les every Eason's, pretty simple, et basic, been around a while and again,it shows me that, and I can also use the vehicle cameras hat. We had. Wehave beice Omar so trying to keep it where I can. Actually you know somebody,you know role to stop sign or then, and it's kind of Nice, because itactually, I showed the guy just saying I had a small group in a small classyesterday and showing him what you know, what their scores are, as you can, asshe gives them a score of they're driving up there. How much? How muchhay wrote the speed limit, how many percentage wise and so that's that'ssomething. I've just started to use or get some good feedback on it. So it'syou know in my my executive team or it's like well, you know we can do somemen has a good record is on get the hundred or ninety nine or whatever. Younow give me them gift cards. I done that over in the past yeah, it's justto speak to the cameras and the vehicles. I was a truck driver and Idid a lot of driving in California up and down. I fiend all O. I remember when they first in startedthe cameras in our trucks. You know it does give you a sense of you know. BigBrother is watching it makes you tighten up a little bit because I,before that I've seen I've been in the safety office and they watching videosan you know, a lot of truck drivers doing a lot of crazy stuff. You knowurinating, while in driving fiting food while they're driving, like you know,so it definitely brings the bringing those cameras in there. Let you knowthe hat big brothers watching you know you got to be on your peas and quessafety at all times, so just knowing it that cameras there. I know it makes abig difference in terms of the safety yeah at first ere. Therese kick back.You know, like the big brother thing. Why are you spying on me? That's why wekind of we kind of decided to go, not lean towards the face recognition stuffwhich does does work. I mean we have the at option to do that, but many theforward, because we have some, we had fortunately, a few accident incidents,but we also get a lot of where people call in and say you o driver got me off,l, Blah Blah and it's like he cut you off because he's only going. You knowfive or eight over the speed limit. You want to go twenty of this to be Lonon.We actually have on the other last month where our God was sitting in astop light and his camera picked up the Morreh cle action at an intersection.He was sitting there waiting to get on the freeway. It was down in Oakland andjust waiting a kind of a building. You know blind spot he's on one way,they're on a one way and there's three vehicles comes into into into thescreen and the first one on closest to him decide they want to turn left anddidn't realize it did pay anycare that...

...there was to Beagle next to them. Inthe other two lanes, the first vehicle it put the front of the fect, the truckand then punning around hit a car on the other land didn't even know theywere coming and then you know nobody was injured, but it was just. I showthat to the guys and they're like wow. That's pretty interesting, you know, soit helps me get to buy in now. A situation like that happens. Do what doyou do with that? Recording of that data? Do you send that in? If there'slike an investigation? What do you do with that? With that recording? I haven't really done much, but that'sreally, my first and only one at this point, but we tried to because Ithought right away, that you know the driver took off that caused theaccident, but actually he came back into the screen and passed our driverand pulled over but didn't show that, but we kind of I kind of kept it justin case there was something going on but yeah and it wasn't really clearenough picture. You see the vehicles, but you really couldn't get licenseplace, but but yeah there was. If there is something like that it does occur.You know a couple years ago we had a car with one of our truce sides wiped on a lockrant waiting for the to turn right. NECAR came down the ramp slammed intoside of him and used him to make the turn and he actually followed her for awhile. Until you know, nine one once is, you know, don't follow a anymore, butwe got the license plate and everything. So if we had the camera back then maybeit would have been something we could use, but we didn'treally the problem with the hitting runs years, because they're inting, youknow, license insurance and or under theinfluence of something, but so we think anything out of thatwe've had to picture trap. Now this switch gears a little bit for my for the views that are listening. Iknow I run it to a lot of a welfare share of business owners that don't think o sheexists, whether they've never had any contact with them. You know whetherthey're reporting their injuries or not for anybody. That's listening that. Youknow that deals with the injury on the job side of job side injury. Can youwalk us through like an ocean inspection or when Oso comes to theside and kind of what to do? What not to do some processes? Yeah. Probablythe well falls back on record keeping because I've had an since where oceancome on side. A few years back, where they've witnessed somebody doing unsafeback of staying on the ladder on the balcony, basically way over the hand,Rosit and making sure you have your records in some way or another, even ifit's paper, if it's electronic something. So what helped us with that notbecoming a citation. Was the the weekly say to me two days prior to thisincident occurring this employee sign? Yes, I know how touse the latter. I will not. You know they talked strictly about this becauseit was. It was basically a temper barrier up there before they put theglass in you know. Should I talked on the phone he like, Oh yeah. I knoweverything was good, so just having your recorking being polite to then Iworked for companies where they go poaches on site shut the job down therebody runs away, that's not good, so we don't do that, but other trades willall the trains will just have it both shows up. You go home, but the bigthing is being cordial with him trying to if you there's a lot of- and I workwith small companies as well- and I didn't know if she existed really untilmaybe the last new fifteen years, because you don't really see thembecause they're kind of a lot more reactive than pro active, sometimes,but I deal with Callosa and on the at the compliance side, and then they havethe C consultation side. So a good thing to do is you can actually get putwell the Fed as well. You can do a consultation and look at your project.If you invite them become of each project, they will review it. Maybe seeyour good to your bad issue, see what...

...you need to correct and they will theywon't fight you if you, if you yep at that time now they may give you okay.We want this fix in a week or in three days and then we'll follow up on it,and if it's not t at that point are corrected, then yeah they may. Theycould still fight you, but really trying to be not to be afraid of them.They're not really out there too aggressive. But if you have a seriousincident with a had one down, tother California, a couple the years ago werealmost a fatality and the guy could have died and you know Osea came out,you know kind of closed the job. They went through everything with throughour fall protection programs and and girled and drilled and drilled. Andfortunately you know the company there we had the records of they had a theyhad a mop for the pro past. They were doing or a J J l and the employee justdid not put his lanyard on his anger point. He was wearing his harness whenhe fell twenty four feet to the concrete floor below him through aceiling, and there was really there was no citation due the fact it was a lotof times. It falls down on the deployment. If you have the proof thatyou have educated them in what they're doing, and we talked about the drink of drinking water, bring the Horse towater at the same incident, another instant where guy could have died fromheat exhaustion, he actually in a heat stroke, and he was found unconscious.You know was a young kid and just and they had, we had theprocedures in place where it's kind is down Hilten, California getting out inthe the desert portion and they had a system where on the site where theywould call in everybody at you know, people had radios and they would makesure everybody drink water. It's been it's been an hour and then every hour,so they had to actually call in to. Yes, I'm here get them there, so thisapprentice was out by himself just working and just he was dehydratedseverely so in the oceans. Again, they came out, of course, that was a bigdeal and they saw the procedures they had in place to protect the employee,give it he had plenty. There was water there, but it was by times of sin done,minutes showed up into the hospital and it took about eight leaders of IV fluidfor him to actually failed to use the restaurant. He was at dehydrated andthey let him out the same day. He was fine. Eventually he just got dehydratedand and, as you know, the working, not the heat, you know you got to paceyourself. Yeah, I would say just like I said,keep your right good, keep record, keeping and invite them out to see yourstuff and so documentation, good record keepingbeing polite. Whether I threw on the job side be courteous, don't be scaredto have them come out to look around now. Let's say, if you, you know, andLise do one of these consultations and you're seeking their assistance doesthat you move it forward that leave you open to like ongoing inspections, dousethat put you on to actially. No, I have a deal with Fedosia ye directly, butlot Callosa Bill Labor involved in so let's say you contact, Osha, hey cancome out get on consultation when your contest contacting them. Does thatleave you more open to inspections of them? I have not been apple this. Ihave not seen that I've had em where the John conter may call them out andsay that's a pretty good sized project that Jone contact comes out and has aluck. A VPP program Volunteer Protection Program for Osaka. She hasone as well beds and they'll come out to the job. Look at it, they'll givethem a list of good trades, bad trains what's going onand that job as going for two more yearsand we'd never see ocean again because they know you're trying theysee your trying not to come out there...

...in a disaster and people down in tenfoot ditches with no shoring or benching yeah they're going to be alittle aggressive. You know anxious about that, but the beauty of it isconsultation. Side and the enforcement side actually do not communicate witheach other. So consultation goes out and looks and goes yeah. Here's thething fix this and then we'll follow up with you, but they don't go back toenforcement sign and go well look. We saw this. We saw this. We saw that andthen o send your army of Ocean spectres out there. It doesn't at least theCaloche that doesn't it and they've been very clear about that, becauseI've been through a couple. VPP programs are John Contractors out hereand we had. We got the Golden Gate Award, which is a fir job. I s likeyour means. Your your safety is actually real or your people, but theinterview some of your employees. They look at your paper work, it look atyour policies and and then again they you never see him again. You know soit's it's kind of. I say part of that being pro active, you know and it it's it takes a whilean I I said I did construction since one thousand nine hundred and eightythree and I've seen a huge, huge difference. Almost like a conflict adventures with the consultation side, an hedivorce enforcements in ter meetin. So but I didn't know that, so thank youfor that information. Moving around a little bit when you first got intosafety. I know it was a big learning curve for a but being how you were kindof thrown into it. What's one thing that you wish you had a known when youfirst started and see the boy give you some yeah, but that's that's a good oneyeah, because I'm wish I'd have known before. I don't know it it's. It wasvery at first. It was very. I want Ay frightening, but a little bit I wish I'd have been andthey did kind of movie in a little little bit lower, but they put me on ajob site to the coordinator for a couple months to try to get me used todoing watching people not trying to get away from folks show in their actualwhat they're, building but more about how they're building it or how they'redoing it. So I guess that was the big thing for me was breaking away from. You know trying to instruct him how tojust put on something simple, insultable, simple opposed to you knowthe safety thing. So I got. I got you a hand slapped a few times on that one,just just trying to break away from that was probably something I wish I'dknown. I could have done better. I knows a lot of great things happeningand a lot of times. We we don't see the hardships and struggles that go intocreating a lot of successes that we have. Are there any failures that you've learned from overthe years that move for you've taken with you this and said youknow what based off that situation. I know how to do things differently nowthere any particular situations that come to mind. Yes, I've had em over theover the years on occasion and basically it's with the passiveaggressive forman getting out there with them and then trying not to getinstead of just butting head trying not to butt head, because I had a coupleover the years that, were you know old school well, my age, but a you know,kind of old school. We did this way and you're not to tell me how to do it,you're just a safety guy, so that was that was some kind of some of thelearning curve I learned was not to to butt head, but just to try to work withthem, see their issues see what their frustrations are and in the funny thing is usually withthose I've had two or three like that they become almost like a friend. Ifyou will over over period of time, just because you I learned to take the patient or you bepatient with them and go not go out...

...there and just you know, chop them up.You know slowly kind of nibble away at different things, trying to teach themprocesses. You know like. If you don't need to use a hammer, you know yourscrew driver for a Chisel, then don't you know so tim, that's kind of simple,but that's probably the biggest thing is just trying to. I had to learn to not just get frustrated with them and go.You know, ten go tell her supertense and get him off. That hat doesn't work.If you go above their heads without telling, then that is bad. That createsa bad environment for everyone, so it's best to work it one on one with thefield and then there're serious issues that, of course, you approach it higherup, but the biggest thing is just trying to be right. There sounds likejust from speaking to you in the conversations we have isdefinitely a level of building a good communication building that trust withthe guys want to cide whether it's formans or what not- and it sounds like.That's part of your process. Building that communication building at trustnot looking down on the guys and it serves to you know, have a j sayfor Jackson. Yeah, you get the buying. You knowbecause I work from you know the first day of prentices. You know try to getwe try to do we I mean you, don't orientation when they come on board,not as which working towards getting it more of the safety side of itorientation instead of just you know the HR part of it, which is simple. Hehad in the path that work really well in my no previous company, where everynew hire came in where they are forming general foreman first day prentice,which is you know, usually somebody right out of high school or just rightout of their part time, restaurant job and spending. You know two couple hourswith them just trying to go. Here's here's! WHAT WE EXPECT! Here's, what welike to see, here's you know and put it in perspective of them going home state. You know having agood bit, because I mean construction. Really, I mean it's a it's a good industry. I mean I've donevery well, you know in the trade, so that's the biggest thing is trying tokeep those guys, so they can stay healthy and over their lifetime, not just that dayor that job, but understanding that if you put yourself up at risk, you'realso putting your family, the fiances, but I think on boarding having a good one. Boarding system isdefinitely key, so I definitely agree with youwholeheartedly. Is there anything in your opinion that people should stop doing when itcomes to safety? Yeah? There is, I have some that I deal with like sit safetyor other like the Jone contractor, mayhave a sician person biggest thing I have. I wish that is sometimes is theeither two sides of it? Some are just there collecting a check. You knowborn around their blind folds on because they want to get involved andthen there's the others that are going around doing the the fafty cop. You know this that andthe other and everything you do. They find something negative about it, andthat's that's kind of the one that he issues that I see out there is. Youhave to be patient with. What's going on trying to have to be, I said aggressiveabout it, but don't kind of go in that same direction, but yeah. The biggestthing is just try to be understanding of what they're trying to do and howthey're trying to do it and maybe come up, and if you need improve it, gowith the way together on how he can do that. You know with with the workingside and the safety side on come of a better proces over the years tools andthings that improved so much where, instead of you know when I started backin the day, you use a big drill, a...

...whole hop drill and everything walks upon you'll twist, and you know you could break your wrist or wrap around yourhand. Nowadays they have tools that have clutches of them. You know so hebinds up so and and so that that helps a lot and then also makes sure you know they understand our protection. But youunderstand the right kind of shoes. You know, because I see some kids that comeout and they're wearing cowboy boots. It's like that's nice and all, but yourfeet are not going to last. Your Life Die, they look cool, but now going back to you had mentioned aGolden Gate Award. Are there any achievement that you're more proud ofthan others? Or do you kind of pay any attention to that at all? And as far asfar as the You Mitch, the Golden Gate so yeah? That's something I'm prettykind of proud of, as I like, I said I started here, and things were a littlerough little behind times and I got thrown right into a consultation withVibo Sha oconto officers, and it was it was. It was intimidating. How did that gowalking through that? One we experience first, I was a nervous track. You knowI'd only been here two, maybe three weeks and I got a call from the JongContractors, safety manager director that Hey we're to interview you guysfor this Golden Gate, so I'm like okay, so I had to go through and kind of digup our programs that were outdated, very outdated, but it's all I had so itwas. It was interesting. I had industrial hygienist was in there aswell for Osha and then poor other officers, and the funny thing is I hand in the bookthey went through it. Looked at it and noticed some things were out of whack like our base, the biggest one was respiratorprotection. I mean I jes a Goin, go right to that of course. So it was likehe's like this. Isn't really for to what you guys actually do in ourbusiness, because we don't do as petise? We don't do that kind of stuff. So so we got through it we made it was. Iwas, they were very informative. They actually went throughthe book and they tabbed and said you know this neeks could do this better,here's what you can put here and they really help me, go through it, and then we had to find the final. Itfinal interview the four months later and the hand of the new binder thatthey helped me make through understanding some of the stuff thatthey look for and it was it was a piece of cake and they were just like this isthis is great. You guys are good. We re in, and you know they had a ceremonyand don't contract a big barbecue for everybody on site, and it was a bigdeal not for just us. There was a for the contractors that received on thisparticular project. I, along with the D Jolon game there, their vpp and then wehad a second one last year, same jo contractor different job entirely andit just a you know: Twelve story, High Rise or mid rise building, and I shut up with my book and they kind oflaughed, and he looked at me like it won't too worried about this. Basically,and I was still a little nervous and we know we went through it and theywere just like. You know basically called me all your old Hannett now sowe're not we're not going to stress over yet so like okay, so we got onthat job as well and it was but again they were. They werevery helpful and I would once I kind of broke the ice. You knowbecause I get a little. I don't want to say SAR cats, I get a little yeah. I Ibeat it myself, you know when I told...

...the I H, I said you know, I handed itto you, but I did not expect you to actually read it and they're like ohwell, you know so it was a yeah, but after that it became just a cordial meeting. It wasn't like they'reon side of the table. I'm sitting in the you know the witness stand it was.It was a good experience, but it was intimidating yeah. I could imagine especially whatjust being new to it and just you know being thrown out there. You know a lotof people I speak to that are in the safety kind of you know. It happens. Hejust get thrown into the position. You know I get women when human resource apartment pay roll,they may not have a safety person and the owner says hey. I need you to findthis a safety program and you know I see that a lot to where you know peopleare just thrown into you know to the field with really no formulizededucation yeah and I and we D. I still see that as well. We have like that some of our Jon cars we workfor they're, not largest contractors, but they'll. They just basically oftentimes they pull in right, other out of their labor pool. You know a guy couldbe a carpenter, you know my trade and they go well. We need a safety persontag your so those are. Those are tough. Those are interesting, but again,that's where we try to. I try to get involved now. Help work with peopletell him, you know maybe should get ocation some of them don't even havethat they just have a show up every day and there you know, but you know Idefinitely start with your working with yourself. I've had a journeyman just turned out last year,and he approach me goes. How do I get in safety fell, and I says well that to be thrown intoit? No, no, I just told em, I said well, Isaid what are your interest in I just sold my did. I at least get Osha thirty.It's not a big deal, a lot of our guys. Do it just for their reservations fortheir license. For California. We have to research every three years, so I just tell him you know, get involvedwith that. Try to find some online stuff that maybe not terribly expensiveor there's some free stuff out there as well. But it's tough because I see somepeople just getting beat up because they don't know. What's going on orthey'll approach, my guys and say hey, you need to do this that way and it'slike. Well, I a guys like. No that's not that's not right, that's not!That's! It required it's not to take this way to do it. So it's it's hard onthem. You know, and it happened a lot a lot and I think it's up to the person Iget thrown under there to try to in a lot of times, contractors or companieswon't even help you pay for your stuff. You I was fortunate. I had a companythat paid you know, base got no two year degree. If you will certificateand they they covered a hundred percent of the crosscut. You know so and that's not that's noteverywhere, unfortunately, were a pretty large company electriccontractor, and so they had the heavy investment. You know I mean probablywhen I first interviewed for the position I had to go see the vicepresident of the operations in the corporate office with the safetydirector at the time, and he said you know he says- you've beensuccessful as a forman with us and you've accomplished this you'vecomplished, you know made money, turn back hours, that kind of stuff it safe. That was fortunate as theforeman I never had to fill out at into report, because I just I don't say birddog, but so anyway, so going in with that interviewing with them and go towe're going to be investing fifteen twenty grand and you were taking out ofyour element and throwing it put you another element. I can take you a fewyears to just start: gaining crosses or...

...progressing again. So that was that's real. The biggestthing is you got to try to find somebody that will take care of you orget in some of the you know just to ty, lunch and stuff onyour own. You know if you can and just I have a curve, ball question for you.If you, if you weren't in the safety field, what would you be doing? Whatwould be your dream job? It wasn't the SAFIE dream job? Oh boy! I don't know aboutthat. One! It's hard! I've been I've done so muchover the years that I really like making stuff my guess. My dream jobwould be having my own shop, where I can work on my own and not not electralshop. But, like I make furniture you I've made furnature for years, notfancy, you know, but I I do a lot of wood working, wood crafting and welding,and I take old stuff and turning into something new. If you have, forinstance, you're interested, I have to have a table a dine in our breakfastnote that I started with a thirty thirty five kvet transformerthat was getting thrown away. You have to almost a four hundred poundinstrument right is I got the. Why need I on so I would ably get that and makeit into A. I built the frame around it. People put a glass top on it, andpeople are like you know, you probably sell it for thousands of dollars and like, but Ilike it, you know so. animate chair took some old chairs that we found at athrift store that were rusted out old patio chairs, polished them all down. My wife helpedme and now a Clipta to made him just meddle, no paint and that's kind of my thing, my deane and Ienjoy working on making things new again, so I know either that or go back in the fieldbuilding stuff. I want to get ready to wrap it up here with you before we do. I mean that, first of all,you gave us some great information, some great insight and dinner with Ociaand record keeping documentation. Is there anything you want to leave ourlisteners with any type of advice or give us some words before you go as faras if you're you know season safety person? I think it's really importantto find what I was told in construction years and years ago, as you workyourself out of a job every day. That's what you're doing you're workingyourself out of the job, so you go to next. Job Kind of thing is trying tofind somebody that you can mentor or somebody that may be help them go insafety direction because, honestly, for the long time it was it was. Oh, youknow taboo safety guy, but now it's actually become more with companies. Society are expecting it, so maybe mentor somebody you know helphim get through be young could be older. Doesn't matternow like to sate manager, both older thanme in Tor Shit, each one t one! I like that. I like that James. It was a pleasure I want tothank you for your time. I know you're busy out there hey it. Wasn't that badright, we made it through it. We had some technical difficulties, buthe we made it. It was good. It was a great experience appreciate your time in need of a blue print for workplacesafety and Compliance Safety Services. Company is North America's leadingprovider of safety, training and compliant solutions. We supply customsafety, manials and policies and on sit and online training solution that willenhance the safety of your workplace and our compliance services will saveyou time and resources guaranteeing peace of mind with eighteen years inthe industry we have a proven track...

...record of helping customers achievebetter safety outcomes by providing customize solutions that fit the uniqueneeds of each business to learn more had to safety services. Companyon thanks for listening to the safetymanagement, show to hear more stories from safety leaders subscribe to theshow in your favorite podcast player. If you enjoyed the show, leave us arating until next time stay safe, T, T.

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